Category: Let's talk
I have to QUICKLY drop this bit of info, and the I'M OUTA HERE for the DAY, but the "plug of the SPIRITUAL RESPERATOR," if you may, that OUR NATION, along with the REST of the ENTIRE WORLD, is DEFINITELY ABOUT to be PULLED, if it hasn't ALREADY been (go to http://www.debrajmsmith.com/TriciaEricksonInterview.html).
This is the funniest thing I have ever heard. Calling Mormonism a cult.
Definition of cult.
1 A system of religious veneration and devotion directed toward a particular figure or object.
2 A relatively small group of people having religious beliefs or practices regarded by others as strange or sinister.
So under this definition even your christianity is a fucking cult.
Christianity has done more harm then any other religion with bigotry, righteous murder, infanticide, racism, hatred and genocide.
Oh and by the way dumb ass this belongs in the religious section.
In the 60s, similar concerns were raised about Kennedy: Can a Catholic be both President of the United States, and have religious allegiance to the Pope? The Pope is not only the head of the Catholic Church, who even then opposed some U.S. policy, but he is head of state of the Vatican. The Vatican split from Italy in the 1920s if I am not mistaken, and became a nation. I may have the timing wrong: I don't remember if it was turn of the century or the 20s. Bit of a big gap there. But anyway people were concerned about this. Most notably, fundamentalists.
I have my own serious questions about the timing of Romney for President right now, but they are not religious.
Also, how dare people mock the system they benefit from, by writing in a candidate who obviously, for many reasons, cannot officiate as the Head of the Executive Branch and the Commander In Chief of the U.S. Armed Forces? People like this fellow and those who elect to have Homer Simpson written in, in my book, are an insult to the women and other minorities in the Middle East who get killed trying to vote, and to their grandmothers who before the 20s could not vote. This diatribe has precedent, and if people's historical memory was something other than that of the average chicken, he would not have an audience.
Kennedy, whatever one thinks of his policies, obviously did not have a problem understanding his Civic Allegiance.
I know nothing about politics, but I've been a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (mormons) for seven years. My wife has been a member all her life. I haven't listened to this entire interview because frankly hearing this woman's spin on our beliefs, and her half or three-quarter truths makes me very frustrated. I would be thrilled to pick apart this woman's talk and explain what we as the LDS church "really" believe if anyone is interested, because if there's one thing that frustrates me it's individuals like this woman trying to do a smear job on us. But I don't really want to inendate the board with a ton of information if nobody's even interested. I don't want to convert anyone; you don't believe in our religion, that's completely fine by me. But I do want people to know the truth about it, a truth I will be happy to properly site. I will say right now that there is another group, the fundimentalist LDS (Mormons), and they hold some dtrastically differring beliefs than we do. Often people confuse us with them, but we are not one in the same.
Bla, Bla, Bla!
Thank you ma'am, that's precisely what I was going to say to all of this.
For ANOTHER "TRICIA ERICKSON INTERVIEW," go to http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aJYJSjCyBMs&feature=youtu.be.
ALSO, THIS, as you know, is a "FREE-FORUM (if you may/might) BOARD," which DEFINITELY DECLAIRS the SOLID "RIGHT-OF-WAY" to post ANY TOPIC of ANY NATURE, so THEREFORE, as I said in my PREVIOUS board-topic post, if you DON'T wish to see what I post, you're TOTALLY FREE to GO ELSEWHERE; however, should you choose to continue to stick around and USELESSLY COMPLAIN about THIS BOARD-TOPIC CONTENT, it's ONLY BECAUSE you WANNA be uncomfortable--ENJOY!
So what makes her so valuable and trustworthy as an interviewee anyway? Who exactly is this woman, and why should we care? Even if she's speaking from "experience" it could have simply been a bad experience for her. There are some pretty messed up situations out there, religious or otherwise. I hardly think she represents the entire LDS spectrum.
This is going to shock some people, so you might want to put your coffee down first. I like this guy. By this guy, I mean the god chosen bride mommy person whose name I don't really care enough to look up the spelling of, I like him. I don't agree with him, but I like him.
Now, I bet a lot of my atheists friends, if any are reading, are going, "But Cody, Why, why have you abandoned us so", and the religious people on here are hearing angels sing or something. I'll tell you why I like him.
On this board, and on the other one he's posted, he has shoved his religion down your throats, been totally unable to give any reason for his opinions, been completely unable or unwilling to participate in let alone win a debate, percecuted a faith that is different from his own and that he clearly does not understand, and probably a few things I can't think of. So guess what, you now know how it feels to be atheist, a little bit. Imagine everyone doing this, every religious friend you meet, more or less, always telling you exactly what godbride mommy boy is saying about the morman church. Imagine that, and maybe you'll have some sense of how it feels to be Atheist. And not even atheist, I'm sure muslims feel the same way to an extent in this country, and probably some other religions. Now you know how it feels.
Note: This was not only aimed at BG, though in reading it, I see that it might sound like it. It is aimed at any christian who feels the need to ask anyone else about their faith. Just so we're clear.
BlindGuardian: You ask what makes her so credible?
Because in America all you need to do is say that you broke away from something, and now you are officially the expert as to what is *REALLY* going on inside that thing. Conspiracy culture is full of this stuff.
You have supposed ex FEMA employees claiming there are FEMA death camps, the moral panic of the 1980s where all sorts of people claimed to be members of a satanic cult of some kind, conveniently a cult that spent millions to support one political movement or another. And amazingly, they tend to surface at politically advantageous times.
I admit I don't know enough about Mormonism to know whether her beliefs are true or not, but her interview was laced with so many racial and political inuendos she sounded more like a political prop than a religious refugee. After Romney wins, if he wins, and nothing at all happens, she may temporarily become somewhat discredited. But Americans, having the historical memory of the average chicken, will soon forget and be hot to trot for the next one.
She was clever enough to state that if you don't see these activities now, it's because they used to do it and toned it all down.
Anyone old enough to remember the moral panic of the 1980s will remember this is a common refrain: the infiltrators tone it down so that you won't know, but then once you're in far enough to be trapped, then you start to learn by the time it's too late.
She points out how anti-semitic the Mormon church was during the 19th century. Well, during the 19th century, antisemitism was en vogue in all churches, and the "Jewish Question" was one of great discussion in upper class circles in London. Primarily because of the poor East london Jewish neighborhoods. Sound familiar, anybody? Substitute Jew for your favorite new immigrant population. Substitute penny houses and elite social clubs for Facebook and your favorite fundamentalist anti-immigrant rant.
So, if the Mormons were antisemitic, that only means they were doing what everyone else was doing during that time period.
People who pick out little bits like that completely lose my respect.
But tell us, BlindGuardian, so we can have some perspective. How high up is a mormon Bishop? She is marketed by her interviewer as though a Mormon bishop is an elite leader. But I was confused later by her talking about the bishop as though he only managed a local company or church ... she said 'ward', I believe. The reason I ask this is because it's important to note just how much someone has responsibility for before drawing wild conclusions.
By way of example: I am an appointed officer for the local Coast Guard flotilla. That means I am a Staff officer {my marine brother calls it staff puke}. But to an outsider, if I said I was an officer with the Coast Guard Auxiliary and did not clarify what that meant, people could draw any number of conclusions. Especially since we volunteers don't merit the same ranking system as our active duty counterparts.
Oh and as to Cody's last post: it's entirely possible someone could flee Christian fundamentalism and make some equally legitimized claims about abuse of power, scare tactics, corruption and all sorts of other claims. Of course the very unmanly fundamentalists would start to cry persecution like little schoolgirls. Some of the most dishonorable behavior is when people dish it out and can't take it.
Cody, I actually agree with you.
Look at us and our first world problems.:)
I suppose I agree with Lightning also. I try really hard personally NOT to discredit other people's beliefs. How successful I am depends on how I come off to you I guess
Leo, an LDS bishop is, in many ways, not much different from a bishop in other branches of Christianity. He is responsible for the temperal and spiritual well-being of a ward, or branch. The bishop has many responsibilities. I can and will go into more detail if you want me to, but for now it's enough for this particular topic to explain that a ward is essentially a congrogation made up of a few hundred people. Cities can have anywhere from one, to five or six wards, and each of these will have a bishop who is supported by two councellors. Every office of authority in our church is supported by councellors. A branch is smaller than a ward, but as far as I understand it serves the same function and works the same way. A bishop is free to make certain decisions about how a ward is run, but only in accordence to the rules set forth by higher authorities of the church, and within the bounds the Lord has set forth. Our church is structured so that no one person has absolute authority. It's sort of a teered structure, with everyone working together and being "called" unanimously. It's really hard to explain without getting into structure, and I'm sure I'm probably over-complicating things; it's late. But without being more confusing, a bishop would sort of be like a SARGENT IN CHARGE OF A SMALL REGIMENT OF A MUCH GREATER ARMY. Sorry leo for my probable butchery of the military. To sum it up, a Bishop's authority stretches only as far as a ward, and if he oversteps his bounds and does something really bad, he can and will be released from that calling.
Very good explanation, and thanks. It confirmed my suspicions, which is that the interview played it as though a bishop were a pretty high-ranking official when your army example seems closer to the truth. Us water-based services are structured somewhat differently but in principle the same as the plattoon / company / regiment you described.
Well, whether I speak on my OWN, post a LINK, or copy and paste any message/messages of anyone ELSE, ALL POSTED MESSAGES are the VERY EXACT EQUIVALENT of each other, regardless of the wording. ALSO, my ONLY REASON for posting these messages is so that ANYONE, if not EVERYONE, who WHOLE-HEARTEDLY comes FULL-CIRCLE with themselves, FULLY RECOGNIZING that they ARE a sinner who's DESPERATELY IN NEED of JESUS, who's the ONE and ONLY SAVIOR of THEIR SOUL, and who's TOTALLY GLAD to welcome him/her into his ETERNALLY-COMFORTING ARMS of ABSOLUTE, EVER-CONSUMING LOVE, the VERY MOMENT that HE/SHE is WHOLE-HEARTEDLY WILLING to TOTALLY TRUST HIM to be.
...And what about those who don't believe in sin? What about those who don't believe in your god?
All you have done on here is post nonsense and put other peoples beliefs down, and tell us were all sinners. You have preached bigotry, intolerance and hate, this is NOT the way to convert people into your cult.
Jesus of the bible never existed and is only a carbon copy of other, earlier deities.
You're only wasting your time, no one cares about your invisible sky fairy or your archaic beliefs.
Atheist and proud!
OK, AGENT R08, in TOTAL, ABSOLUTE RESPONSE to YOUR POST, my ONLY AGREEMENT with YOU is to OFFICIALLY CONCLUDE that "ZONE BBS" SIMPLY DOESN'T EXIST, and that if YOU, or ANYONE, for this matter, were to DARE OPPOSE ME on this VERY TRUTH that I'M EMPHATICLY PRONOUNCING, you're DEFINITELY INTOLERANT, a HATE-MONGER, and a TOTAL PUT-DOWN to A-SOCIALNONYMOUSITS (those who don't believe in the existance of the "SOCIAL-NETWORKING MEDIA," if you may).
***ASK BILL: Pastor Bill, after reading your Devotional about Mormonism, I am concerned and have been concerned about both Democratic and Republican candidates. So we are to vote for a Muslim or a Mormon? How is a born-again Christian to vote?
ANSWER: "When faced with a choice of two evils choose neither." Charles Spurgeon AMEN!!!!!! www.votingforjesus.com
God's Truth! What is in the news today? When you open the newspaper, or check your online news sources, several things stand out. Christianity is under attack! Nothing has changed over the past decade, in fact, they have gotten worse. Don't believe me? Just look at what we are dealing with today.
Chick-fil-A, that I wrote about along with the Boy Scouts of America on Monday, is under attack because of their stance on God's Holy Institution of Marriage. They oppose same-sex marriage, so they are being attacked. In that same vein, the Muppets, yes, the Muppets, created by Jim Henson are now involved as pawns to support gay marriage!
As I told you a month ago, some hotels in the UK and here in the US are replacing Bibles with the pornographic "50 Shades of Grey." You don't even need to watch the porn on the TV's in hotels now, just read the books they provide you with their room!
On the positive front, the grandson of science fiction writer and founder of the Scientology cult is speaking out against this cult. Praise God for such courage, as he denounces his great grandfather as little more than a charlatan and tool of satan leading souls to hell with his heresy!
As I shared yesterday, Ravi Zacharias, Franklin Graham, and David Jeremiah got so much heat (mostly from Liveprayer family members), that they have now dropped out of being part of satanic cult member Glenn Beck's weekend in Dallas of mocking God and Jesus. It is sad that we now have to applaud men of God for NOT being part of making a mockery of God and the Lord, but sadly that is where we are at. For the record, Pat Gray, friend, radio co-host, and a high priest in the Mormon cult who led Beck into that perversion, emailed me last weekend upset that I was exposing his boss and the true beliefs of their cult.
On that same subject, it is funny that the gutless Joel Osteen did a special interview with Beck's Mormon propaganda service "The Blaze," and defended himself from the critics like myself and others who have blasted him for being nothing more than a cotton candy, prosperity/motivational preacher. In his typical wimpy verbiage, he said he doesn't like upsetting people. Really? Jesus Himself said the Gospel would be offensive. Men and women over the last 2,000 years have DIED for the Gospel. At the end of the day, Osteen only cares about himself and being 'liked' by the masses who buy his books and help in to take in millions!
Don't forget, it was Osteen, who without hesitation said Beck's cult brother Mitt Romney was a Christian because Romeny said he was. LOL!!! My friend, there is only ONE source of Truth, and that is God's Word. NOTHING ELSE! It is not what you want Truth to be, or what I want Truth to be, but what God says Truth is!!!!!
I love you and care about you so much.. I hope these examples help you see how the Word of God is not irrelevant to our lives each day, but very RELEVANT! The fact is, God's Word doesn't just apply to all of the events that happen in our world each day, it also applies to all the events that happen in YOUR LIFE each day! Everything that happens in your life can be looked at through the filter of God's Word. Everything that happens in your life each day MUST be looked at through the filter of God's Word!
That is my word for you today. You have got to start putting your life in the context of God's Word. You see, it is the Bible that is our guide through life. The Bible is the only Truth there is. That is why it is imperative to look at everything going on in your life each day through the lens of God's Word. It is His Word that guides us in the decisions that we have to make throughout our journey through this life. It is His Word that helps us to know the mind of God on any of the issues that we face. That is why it is co critical to be in the Word of God each day, reading and studying what God says so we know how respond and act no matter what life throws our way.
I will be praying for you today. Praying that God will open your heart today to hear this important word for your life. Start applying God's Word to the events you see unfolding each day throughout our world, and most important, start applying God's Word to the events you see each day in your very life.
In His love and service,
Your friend and brother in Christ,
Bill Keller
Great way to completely ignore the bulk of my post twinkle toes.
I can only assume your zone not being real argument has something to do with the disbelief that god exists if so.
Your pathetic argument trying to say the zone doesn't exist is the stupidest, lamest, most illogical, idiotic and logical fallacy ridden POS I have ever heard spewed from anyones mouth.
The zone, and every site on the net are tangible things. We can see the affects from the data transmission, hell even see the code, or change it. We can not see your god.
Also you are bigoted and a fucking douche bag as well. You have pasted things from that idiot fuck tard Bill Keller over and over again. He, and you by default have slandered homosexuals, Mormons, Islam and anyone else who disagrees with you.
Shut the fuck up already! No one gives two shits about you or your idiot god. Get over yourself.
Agent r08,
Sounds like you are getting agitated! Does the truth hurt? It must because all of the fowel language you like to use.
Here is what I will say to you. Bla, bla, and praise the lord
Have a good day and God bless you!
The truth? Prove it!
There are any number of reasons someone can lash out and become angry and upset. Only one obscure one has to do with, sa two posts ago said, the truth hurts.
You lash out when all sorts of things happen in life, most of which have nothing to do with the truth hurting. That is a fallacious concept.
Glori. Truth a a concept that is supported by observable evidence.
truth/tro͞oTH/Noun: The quality or state of being true: "the truth of her accusation".
That which is true or in accordance with fact or reality: "tell me the truth".
mygodchosen postings are not "truth", they are faith based. Huge difference, I suggest you and your friend learn the difference.
Also Leo has a very good point, when people lash out it is never because "the truth hurts" in this case it was because the original poster is so brain washed that he can't see how ignorant and how hateful the words are that he's posting. He can't even stop to think for one second that maybe what he is posting is uneducated and incites bigotry.
It's the OP's own logical fallacies, and now yours too, that pisses people off so much.
One question! How do you know!
Of course, you have every right to believe or not to believe. That is your choyce and everyone's joyce.
The only thing I don't understand is if you and some of the others don't like what that guy is posting, why do you all read his posts! He has every right to his beliefs whether they are wrong or right.
You have heard of the ignore people here on the zone, well use it if the guy's posts bother you. Put him on your ignore list instead of bad mouthing his posts.
Just a suggestion. Take it or leave it!
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Articles - Your Destiny
Written by Mac Hammond
"Opinions are like noses. Everybody has one." Or so the old saying goes. It's true.
Regardless of the topic (sports, politics, even the weather) everyone seems more
than willing to offer his or her personal wisdom and insight on the subject.
This holds true in spiritual things as well. Varying opinions about heaven, hell
and salvation abound.
Now, adopting someone else's opinion on who's going to the Super Bowl is generally
harmless. But when it comes to matters of life, death and eternity, you'd better
have something more substantial than some mere mortal's opinion.
Tragically, many people don't.
Far too many individuals are staking their eternal destiny on what their parents,
professors or denomination told them was necessary to enter heaven.
Others aren't quite sure how they came to their conclusions about God and His kingdom.
They just shrug their shoulders and say, "I've always believed this way."
The truth is, there exists only one reliable source of truth concerning matters of
the soul and spirit. The Bible.
The Holy Bible is the divinely inspired Word of God. Yet millions of people today
assume that their ill-founded opinions are good enough to answer eternal questions.
The tragic result in each case is an unfulfilled life here on earth and an awful
eternity in hell.
Going to the Source
All scripture is breathed from the very mouth of God himself. God cannot lie. Therefore
you can rely on the Bible as an infallible source.
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for
reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may
be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.
(2 Tim. 3:16-17)
The Greek word translated "inspiration" in this passage of scripture literally means
"God-breathed."
In the next few paragraphs, we'll open the Word of God and see what this trustworthy
source has to say about the most important question you'll ever face. Namely, what
does it mean to be born again?
These are the most basic of life and death issues. Yet your human mind alone will
never comprehend the secret of life. And try as they might, scientists will never
unlock the mystery of the spark of life or see beyond the veil of death.
Only the Word of God penetrates the cloak of mystery that envelops these questions.
The Reality of Heaven and Hell
One of the most widely held beliefs today is that death means annihilation. In other
words, when you die, that's it. It's over.
Please don't fall for that lie. Death does not mean a termination of existence. In
the Bible, the word death is translated from Greek and Hebrew words meaning "separation."
Physical death is simply the separation of the spirit and soul from the body.
No, death is not the end. On the contrary, death is merely a door that leads to one
of two possible eternal homes: One in heaven. The other in hell.
Spiritual death results when you are separated from God, the source of all life.
Spiritual life, on the other hand, results from oneness with the Giver of Life.
One of the most vivid scriptural pictures of what happens after death was painted
by Jesus Himself:
There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared
sumptuously every day: And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid
at his gate, full of sores, And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from
the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's
bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being
in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and
said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip
of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
(Luke 16:19-25)
Did either of the men in Jesus' account cease to exist when they died? No, they both
continued a conscious existence even while separated from their physical bodies.
The beggar was carried by angels into "Abraham's Bosom" (also referred to as paradise).
This was the place where the saints of God were housed prior to Jesus' resurrection.
The rich man, who was not saved, went to hell where he continued to feel pain, sorrow
and anguish.
You are an eternal being. Death means only a change of residence from this earth
to either heaven or hell.
What determines your destination? One thing and one thing only: Your relationship
with Jesus Christ. Why is that so important? You'll find the answer back in the Garden
of Eden.
Adam's Double Defeat
"And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils
the breath of life; and man became a living soul" (Gen. 2:7).
When God first created mankind, He breathed into his nostrils the breath of life.
That included life for his spirit, life for his soul and life for his body.
That very same word "life" is used in Genesis 2:8-9: "And the Lord God planted a
garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed. And out of
the ground made the Lord God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and
good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of
knowledge of good and evil."
The phrase "tree of life" should actually be translated tree of "lives." It was specially
created to supply life to the spirit, soul and body of Adam.
That's why God commanded Adam to eat of it and every other tree in the garden except
for one.
And the Lord God took the man, and put him into the Garden of Eden to dress it and
to keep it. And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden
thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt
not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
(Gen. 2:15-17)
God gave Adam two commands. First, he was to eat of the Tree of Life so God's "life"
and power would be imparted to him on an ongoing basis. Second, he was to
never eat of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil.
The penalty for violating the second command was death. Not physical death, mind
you - spiritual death. Separation from God would be the result.
Thus Adam's disobedience was two-fold. In eating of the Tree of the Knowledge of
Good and Evil, Adam partook of that which he was commanded not to eat. This resulted
in death and separation.
Secondly, he neglected to eat that which he was commanded to eat, which would have
resulted in eternal life.
As Adam's descendants, we each have a two-fold decision to make as well. We must
not only reject evil, we must also partake of life.
Many people have fulfilled only the first half of that equation. They live good,
moral lives by most standards. They don't smoke or drink. They display honesty and
integrity. They generally shun evil. Many even go to church and have been baptized
in water. Yet they still face an eternity in hell because they have neglected to
partake of the Tree of Life.
Jesus, the Source of Life
For us, Jesus is the Tree of Life. He said, "The thief cometh not but for to steal,
and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might
have it more abundantly" (John 10:10).
We must partake of Jesus if we are to experience life in all facets of our being.
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that
sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation: but is passed
from death unto life.
(John 3:24)
What then, must you do to partake of this life? How does one partake of Jesus, the
Tree of Life? Jesus answered a similar question for a man named Nicodemus in John
chapter 3, "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, except a man be born again, he cannot
see the kingdom of God"
The next part
Jesus explicitly told Nicodemus that in order to see heaven, he must be born again.
This "new birth" is the process by which we partake of the Tree of Life.
Notice Jesus didn't tell him joining a church would give him eternal life. He didn't
prescribe being sprinkled as a baby, living a good life, or any other good work.
There is only one way to see the Kingdom of Heaven. "You must be born again."
The concept of being born a second time confused Nicodemus. Thinking only in natural
terms, he protested that it was impossible for a man to re-enter his mother's womb.
Jesus explained it to him in verses 5-7:
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, except a man be born of water and
of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the
flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I
said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
Here, Jesus explains that the second birth does not occur in the physical realm of
man's nature, but rather in the spiritual.
Jesus' declaration that a person must be born both "of water and of the Spirit" has
been misinterpreted by some people. They claim that this scripture proves that water
baptism is a means of, and is necessary for, salvation.
This is simply not true. Of course, water baptism is an important point of obedience
in the life of a believer. But in the New Testament, water is frequently a type or
symbol of the Word of God. In this instance Jesus is merely saying that man is spiritually
reborn through the Word of God and by the Spirit.
This is confirmed in 1 Peter 1:23:
Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the Word of God,
which liveth and abideth forever.
Here the Holy Spirit clearly links the process of being born again to the Word of
God.
How to be Born Again
As you can clearly see, being born again is the most important thing you can ever
do. All other goals and aspirations in life pale in significance alongside the knowledge
that you are going to live forever with a loving heavenly Father.
As a result, you might presume that being born again is a difficult or complex process.
Nothing could be further from the truth.
There are basically three components to receiving the new birth:
1. Repentance
Repentance, the first component, means to change or turn around. True repentance
means recognizing that your sinful life is wrong and that a change of heart, attitude
and direction is required. To repent is to reject evil.
I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
(Luke 13:3)
2. Believe in Jesus
The second component of the New Birth process is believing in the deity and resurrection
of Jesus Christ.
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth
in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
(John 3:16)
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine
heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
(Rom. 10:9)
3. Confess Jesus as Lord
The third component of the New Birth involves your mouth. You must use it to sincerely
confess Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior. When you believe on Jesus with your
heart and confess Him with your mouth you are partaking of the Tree of Life.
For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession
is made unto salvation.
(Rom. 10:10)
The Miracle of the New Birth
You now know the three steps a person must take in order to be born again. However,
you must understand that these steps do not cause the new birth to happen. It is
a miracle that can only be performed by the Holy Spirit.
When you take these steps you give the Holy Spirit permission and freedom to do what
only He can do.
If a person could be saved by merely following a three-step formula, salvation would
be based on works rather than God's grace.
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift
of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.
(Eph. 2:8-9)
Your heart-belief and mouth-confession simply bring the Holy Spirit on the scene
to create the miracle of the new birth.
Getting it Settled
If you've never been born again or if you have some questions in your mind concerning
your relationship with Jesus Christ, you're only a prayer away from settling those
issues once and for all.
Take a moment to pray this prayer. Say the words from your heart. If you mean them,
Jesus will come into your heart and you will be born again.
God in Heaven, I come to you in the name of Your Son, Jesus. I confess that I haven't
lived my life for You. I believe that Jesus is the Son of God. I believe that He
died on the cross and rose again from the dead so I might have a better life now
and eternal life in heaven. Jesus, come into my heart and be my Lord and Savior.
From this day forward, I'll live my life for You to the best of my ability. In Jesus'
name I pray, Amen.
Now thank God for saving you and know for sure your life will never be the same again!
My answer to you Glory is simple. I post on these topics because my particular beliefs are being drastically mis-represented. It doesn't bother me that people don't believe as I do. But it does bother me that someone is slandering my religion based on half-truths and flat-out fiction.
Ok, lets point out a few logical falicies here shall we? Glory, you're telling others to ignore the original post, why aren't you ignoring their post? Its our right to post angry things, just as its his right to post religious things. So why aren't you practicing what you preach?
second, if the bible is completely true and can't lie, why don't you follow it entirely? Wait you say, but I do follow it entirely, then why aren't you in jail for stoning every atheist you've ever met, or any member of any other religion like god told you to in the bible. Why don't you own slaves? Why do you wear shirts which are made of blended materials (note, I'm assuming you've worn a T-shirt). Why don't you sell your children into slavery, why don't you sleep with your own sister, or mother, or father, or brother, or servant, which are all ordered by God at one point in the bible.
Also, if its entirely true, why does it get so many things wrong? Why does it say the world is flat? Why does it say rabbits chew the cud when they don't? why does it say insects have four legs when they don't? Why does it say Jesus had two grandfather's on his father's side when that's impossible? Why can't it decide on what day Jesus died, or what he was wearing, or what he drank, or what he said, or what the roman centurian said, or what happened, or how long he was on the cross, or what he rode into town before being crucified? Why can't it agree on who found him, how many their were, what they did afterward, who they saw at the tomb, what that someone said to them, or didn't say to them? Why can't it decide how Judas died, or what he did with the silver he got for Jesus's betrayal?
And most importantly, why does an all powerful God who loves us do so many terrible things to us, when he's an all powerful god and could just make us realize whatever he wanted to? Why did he create satan to tempt us, when he wants us to honor him? Why does he break so many of his own commandments? And how in the world could you be ok with claiming that a book that has both a talking snake, and a talking donkey, but isn't written by Aesop is entirely true?
The_Blind_Guardian,
I don't blame you at all. I think you should stick up for what you believe. I don't like it when some one slanders the Catholic church either, but it happens.I am very proud being a Catholic whether others like it or not.
Always stick up for what you blieve in.
My late husband use to be a Morman and believed in it, but the lasst three or four years he came back to his birth church, Catholic. Now he is home with Jesus.
And Hitler.
Wow, skipped right over my post. I'm so shocked, how ever will I survive.
GLORY, I REALLY MUST SAY that you CERTAINLY couldn't've delivered a MORE POWERFUL SERMON than you have in your PREVIOUS POSTS--SOLID, INDISPUTABLE TRUTH, AT ITS BEST--and ALL the MORE BEYOND THAT! The POWER of GOD was REALLY USING THOSE FINGERS of YOURS to REALLY SHARE HIS WORD in a COMPLETELY IMPACTING WAY.
HOWEVER, in TOTAL AGREEMENT with BILL KELLER, as well as OTHER SOURCES that are ABSOLUTELY TRUTH-BASED, COMPLETE EXPOSURE CAN and DOES cause TREMENDOUS ERUPTIONS--MY DESIRE is that the LORD DOES open my eyes to see ALL of the ABSOLUTE TRUTH, instead of just taking at face value. I wanna ALWAYS see things from a COMPLETE BIBLICAL )and NOTHING ELSE) PERSPECT, as I endeavor to allow JESUS to live HIS LIFE through EVERY ASPECT of MINE.
A complete biblical and nothing else prospect? Really? Really? I mean, come on, you're just kidding now, right? Right? Have you even read the bible? Seriously, you're kidding, you cannot actually want to see the world as the bible describes it. I mean, no one is that fucking stupid and still able to make a conscious effort to breathe, are they? Sweet jumping christmas jew.
mygodchosenbride&i4lifefinally,
Who died and made you God!
If you don't like what I post, ignore them, or don't read them.
I just responded to a poster about his comment on those who are putting down what he believes in.
Grin and bare it!
glory, are you really that dumb that you couldn't see that my god chosen bride and I for life finally was saying your posts were well done?
grin and bear it yourself, woman, cause not everyone believes as you do, nor are we as unhappy as you seem to be.
Happy Heart,
Some times I strike before I think?
Thank you for bringing that to my attention!
There is no excuse for my reaction, but I do have a lot on my mind. Do you know what it is like to lose the love of your life? I am speaking about my husband who was called home.
Thank you,
mygodchosenbride&i4lifefinally,
I do owe you an apology. Like I said in my last post, I have a very bad habbit of striking before thinking. So that is why I wanted to write back to you to apologize to you
God bless!
Um... if this is a habit, what does it have to do with you grieving? I mean, you have my sympathies that your husband died, but how does that have to do with the fact that you have a habit of not thinking before you say something? If its a habit, its not effected by your grief. I have a habit of tapping my fingers when I'm thinking. I don't tap my fingers more when I'm sad.
Don't wear your grief as a shield, or use it as an excuse. That's just poor manners.
Cody took the words right out of my mouth.
Happy Heart and SilverLightning,
I can see why the both of you are atheists. At least I apologized. and admited that I was wrong.
People who have God in their hearts usually forgive, but of course that is your own choice.I am not trying to shove God down your throats.
I do have a question though. Do the two of you ever make mistakes? If so, are you forgiven your mistakes? Just curious!
Again I am sorry for not reading that post properly!
As far as my grieving goes, that is none of your business and I am not hiding under a shield like you think I am.
Happy Heart and SilverLightning,
I am here on the zone to try to make friends and have a lot of fun. People like you to sure can spoil that.
Instead of posting back, put me on your ignore list if that would make you both happy. I really don't care. I did my part.
just as we're doing ours, as Cody has said, by speaking our minds, and not tolerating your bologna.
of course we all make mistakes, that's a part of life. forgiveness doesn't come into play, though.
Glori, I know exactly what you mean. I don't give people like that the time of day, they automatically go to my ignore everything list. and I move on and keep living my life! :)
I didn't say anything about your mistake glori. In fact I understand it. the original poster used couldn't've, which isn't a word. Its easy to see why you mistook that for could've, which is a word. They sound nearly the same to a screen reader.
I will call you out on your hippocracy though, cuz their's a lot of that. You're fine saying its someone's right to post something, as long as that something agrees with your views. Put out an opinion that doesn't jive with your biblical view of things, and suddenly your feelers are hurt.
As for you being able to see why I'm an atheist. You don't have the first clue why I'm an atheist. you think just because I don't have the love of some invisible faerie man in the sky in my heart, that I'm not a good person. You think that because I didn't go "Aww poor you, your husband died, of course you can use that as a lame excuse" that I can't be a good person, and you corolate that with atheism because you've been taught by that twisted book you cleave to that the only way to goodness is through that evil tyranical dictator you call a god. You think that because I'm not exactly like you, that I can't be a good person, and that all of that stems from my Atheism, and my atheism stems from some deep-seated anger. You don't have a single clue why I'm an atheist, or what kind of person I am.
I'd rather be an atheist, with morals that allow them to say that homosexuality is fine, its fine to believe whatever you want as long as it never touches anyone elses life and you leave children alone, people who say that you should live your own life to the best of your ability. I'd rather have those people than people who cling to a book written thousands of years ago, and packed with more vile, evil, cruel and heartless acts than it is possible to mention in several volumes of writing, and then call themselves good. I can't stand people who look at a book where millions of people are drowned for following the free will given to them by the being drowning them, and then somehow manage to call that being good.
I'll close by pointing out a few things to you glori that you seem to have missed. First, I don't give a shit if you're offended, I don't care if you ignore my posts. You're sixty years old, grow up and grow a pair and be able to tough it out. you have an opinion, now defend it, and stop whining like you're age just dropped a zero. Second, the posts that have been full of more hate than any other post on this board, have been the ones posted or copied by christians. All the posts by this keller guy have been so full of hate and evil and bigotry that it boggles my mind that you could support it. And finally, my personal favorite, the man you've defended in this post, and the preacher he's copying and pasting on here for us all to laugh at, would say you, as a catholic, are a devil-worshipper, evil, a whore of a pope, and several other things. And yet you defend him. Enjoy your hippocracy.
Wow. Things sure have gone to the dogs since I last looked. To be completely frank, the way some of you respond and treat each other speaks a great deal more about your online personalities than any of your atheistic or Christian beliefs. Whether that extends to your actual personalities? Who knows.
Glory, there might not be any excuse for striking out without thinking. But it is something we're all tempted to do at one time or another, and it is one of many trials which can take a lifetime to overcome. But I do know how emotions can run away with us when we're going through hard times. I greave for your loss, but I believe there will come a time when you two will be reunited. Still, that parting in mortality must be hard to bare. Were it that my own wife departed this mortal coil, I would miss her terribly regardless of my certainty that we would be reunited. Hang in there. Look to the scriptures, to your friends, your family, Jesus Christ, and within yourself, and you will find comfort.
Mygodchosen.... I applaud your convictions. While I can't find it in my heart to partake of the bitter cup you and Bill Keller pour out, it's nice to know of your faith in Christ. I appear to have a much different outlook on him, but I too believe whole-heartedly in his existence. That said, one of the most damaging things we can do in addition to disputing doctrine is condemn others for their beliefs. Bill Keller does this over and over again by denouncing other faiths and beliefs based on his own perceptions. and by extention, so do you. This is no way to represent such a peaceful - yes Lightning, I said peaceful - gospel. Just because others do not yet believe, choose not to believe, or believe slightly different from you does not give you OR Mr. Keller the right to condemn them for it. You share these devotionals often, but there is little positivity, inspiration or uplifting virtue in them. They are full of condemnations masquerading as loving words. if Bill Keller really "loved" those who read his words, perhaps he would spend more time uplifting them than condemning those - Christian or not - who do not share his views.
You Atheists have a rite to your beleifs, just as anyone else does. But in many ways you are acting no better than the perpetrator of this misguided hate and condemnation that pollutes this topic. You don't have to believe in what we Christians do. Heaven knows topics like this give you enough reason to stear well clear of religion. But the scorn with which many of you belittle our beliefs, or even the idea of our beliefs makes you just as hostile as people like Bill Keller, all be it on a much less destructive scale. You condemn our practices, our scriptures and even our leaders, and you come across like you have it all figured out. Except for you, there appears nothing to figure out. Nothing exists beyond the here and now, beyond what you can see right before your eyes. But if we were limited to only what we could see before us in the world, and in the here and now, a lot of things would cease to exist, wouldn't they? heck, people once took as fact that the world was flat, and the center of the universe. They were proved wrong. Certainly we can't prove that there is anything beyond this world, or beyond mortality, but at the time, they couldn't prove that their beliefs were wrong either, and they condemned others who said otherwise. You can go on believing in what you believe, whatever truth exists will catch up to all of us one day. But when you do nothing but belittle us, call us and our beliefs silly and pick apart our religious scriptures without considering their contexts you make yourself no better than those of us you claim to despise. There are many among Christians and other religions who are lead to condemn the world and spread hatred and contempt. Whether they are lead by the promptings of Lucifer, their own selfish greed or a misguided sense of righteousness matters not. What matters is they do not represent the whole. For every Bill Keller there are five Mother Theresas. For every South Burrough Baptist Church there are congrogations who come together to releive victoms of natural disasters, mourn with the afflicted and give of their substance unto those in need. There are a lot more people out there who reach out to do good, to spread piece and compassion and who do their best to study and understand the gospel they believe in. Over and over you condemn all of us for the deeds of the few. But what's more, some of you make mockeries of our beliefs. And then you say if we can't handle it we should ignore it, or grow a pair. No. It's not a question of handling it. It's a question of human decency. Just as we Christians have no rite to condemn you, neither do we have any rite to belittle us. It is this, and the lack of willing understanding that has caused a rift between peoples, cultures, ideals and doctrines throughout history.
yes, BG, you do need to grow a pair. I'm sick and tired of you and others who share your beliefs demanding that we need to step back and take a look at ourselves.
just as you have a right to your opinions, so do we.
cause, the truth is, whether you see our words as such, that's exactly what they are, believe it or not.
our feelings, our views; not personal attacks on people we disagree with).
the reason you see it as belittling, though, is cause we're picking apart said beliefs that you've been taught not to question, which, in turn, causes you to feel we're attacking you personally (although you'll disagree time and time again, that isn't at all the case).
and, just as churches do good things for charities/the world in various other ways, so do we atheists.
do you even think/recognize that fact? you've said you do in the past, but I don't believe it.
oh, and one more thing. I'll say time and time again that what you see online is exactly who I am offline.
and, as has been demonstrated here, most people can't handle my bluntness/honesty.
that's fine; at least I can defend my position without telling others to shut up simply cause I disagree with their view.
Happy, I spend a great deal of time questioning the scriptures. My church believes that it is important to obtain as much education (both academic and religious) as possible. We are taught to ponder, reflect and question. In this age of mass information that becomes somewhat difficult, but it is far from impossible. I don't get defensive because you're picking apart my beleifs. I've come to my own conclusions based on a great deal of study, reflection and prayer, and frankly none of you have asked questions about things in the Bible or in collective church history that I haven't myself asked in the past. These are real questions you have, and they deserve real answers. But only if you want real answers will anybody take the time to give them to you. I am not telling you or anyone else to shut up. I do not have a problem with your opinions, or your beliefs, nor do I feel the need to belittle them. What I do expect however is that our oppinions be treated as valid, which is something you and others refrain from doing. Many of your (in the collective sense) rebuttles come off very judgmental, and even arrogant. You want to debate? Great! Ask questions, give us examples, make us think - it is important for all of us to be open minded. Blind faith is dangerous. But I would ask you not to do so with the sole intent of belittling the answers we give you. if you aren't actually interested in the answers we give (and it's true we don't always answer, just as you don't always either), then why bother asking the questions in the first place? I don't take your words personally; while I too am as I appear on this board, I, like you Happy am also much more than the sum of my words. While you are sick of people telling you you need to step back and take a look at yourselves, so too am I tired of being told in no uncertain terms that we're not looking hard enough at ourselves. There are some of us who do follow blindly, but there are just as many who base their beliefs on a lot more than what others say. Religions are elaboret tapestries of belief, history and theological doctrine. If you choose to ignore all of that and consider it to be mere fiction, that's okay. Certainly there are enough differing oppinions and outlooks to make anyone's head spin. But when you look down on us for believing in it, that's when I personally get frustrated. When you (again in the collective sense) create topics just for the sake of goading a reaction (as in the "An Experiment" topic) it becomes quite frustrating. Just as frustrating, i imagine, as us telling you that your way is wrong and ours is right. Well, I'm not here to tell you that. I say what I believe yes, but I'm trying really hard not to condemn your beliefs, and I would ask for the same courtasy. We might need to earn your respect and all that, but don't be unreasonable. And the same goes for any religious person who does the same thing to you. The whole thing is pointless.
then, oh wise one, if it's indeed pointless as you say, why do you so fervently continue sharing your beliefs?
and, who are you to assume we don't really want answers. that, too, is ludacrous, as we wouldn't pose questions just to see our writing on the boards.
while I'm aware some of us are more sarcastic than others, that by no means indicates being snarky just for the hell of it. so, before you make such judgements, maybe next time, you should put yourself in those shoes.
oh, wait, that's probably damn near impossible, as you've claimed before that you're the one being criticized for your beliefs. yet, you have absolutely no clue what kinda things we go through as outspoken atheists (especially those of us who live in extremely conservative towns).
but, never mind that.
Here's my question: Where is the evidence for Hebrew tribes, chariots, weapons, horses, pigs, and so on, in North America 2000 or more years ago? Come on, you've been asked before, let's hear it.
BG, the reason we don't ask you question is because you've never been able to answer them in the past. You and I have debated many a time on these boards, and it always ends up with you saying basically, "That's just what I believe", and me going, "Um... that's not an answer". So I would like to reiderate, that is not an answer. Saying, this is just what we believe, is not an answer. If you're going to believe something, have a reason for believing it.
Oh, and before any of you say it, no, because I can feel it, is not an answer either. You want me to believe there's a god, pray for him to heal amputees. Give us evidence more than a silly anicdote. Because honestly, those little anicdotes sound like they're coming from children.
When your stories are exactly the same in substance as that big fat man in the red suit who comes down your chimney at christmas, there is a problem with your story. And when your only evidence is, I can just feel it, there is something wrong with your evidence.
You should really read the entirety of the why won't god heal amputees, and god is imaginary websites. They do something you can never do, they site things.
So please, site us something. I can site you every bit of scientific principle upon which my opinions are based. I can give you pier reviewed essays and articles, scientific publications, lectures, and experiments to support what I claim as reality. You can't give us any of that. So like ipregnater said, show us some evidence of their being hebrew tribes in America before the 16 jews that came over in the 1600's. And do it with pier reviewed historical sources.
You want to say we don't listen to your answers? Give us some to listen to, and stop with this anicdotal claptrap about your life. If you can't find anything more substantial than an imaginary friend to put your faith in, that is your problem. I don't consider it evidence.
Eext, mother teresa was a horrible, horrible person, who did terrible terrible things and called them cherity. her room for the dying was a place of torture. Look at Christopher Hitchin's excellent documentary "Hell's angel", made by the BBC.
Next, it is not doing something good if you do it with a price. Missionaries go over and offer food in exchange for conversion, that is not good, that is despicable. Helping victims of natural disasters with the hopes that they will turn to god is despicable. You should help them because you can, and because you should, and because you're damn glad its not you. You should not even think that they might turn to god.
Last, no, we are not being equally as harsh as the christians on this board. if you notice, no atheist has ever said that if you do anything you will burn in a lake of fire forever. The only thing atheists believe will make you burn in a lake of fire is th make a lake of fire and jump into it, and even that won't be forever. We don't punish people for eternity for their actions. Only you do that. Only you drive people to suicide for being homosexual. Only you teach people that they are imperfect, and that the natural thoughts and desires they have are sinful and should be done away with. Only you do that, not atheists.
So don't tell me that you're being equally as moral as we are, or that your beliefs shouldn't be belitteled. With beliefs as evil as those, I'd say its high time someone beliettled them.
There you go lumping everyone into the same catagory again. I have, not once in my life told anyone they are going to burn, or that their damned,. I'm not even saying our "natural urges" should be "done away with", just held in check for the time when they are appropriate. It's true I don't agree with homosexuality, but my feelings about that began long ago, well before I joined any church. That said, I will never tell a gay or lesbian person that their actions will condemn them. They are living by different standards than I - not bad standards, just different. Furthermore many whom I have met have been wonderful people who do not deserve the scorn and ridicule they recieve. I do have morals regarding all of this which differ from your own. But no, I don't agree with those Christians who perpetrate the things that get under your skin. To be honest Lightning, (and the rest of you perhaps) I get the impression that you're so bent on seeing only the negative of religion that you can't see any positive. You come off sounding like you think we're all a bunch of hipacrits who think God is the only thing that matters in this life, and that we're out for payment for the good deeds we do. Yes there are some - too many in fact - who are like that. They preach and condemn, but when it comes to following the gospel, they are found wanting. But when you lump everyone in the same catagory it seems to me like you could really care less about any of the good people. Have you ever met a good Christian? DO you not have one good friend who happens to be Christian? I know I have a number of friends who happen to be atheist. Somehow it doesn't seem to cause problems. I know I'm making presumptions. Lightning, I don't know much about you, your life or your reasons to so adimently pass judgment on every single religion, even if you have been kind enough to share some of your own experiences. But I do read your words. And I know by them that you consider yourself an antitheist. That is not a term I had ever heard before meeting you.
I've said it before, and I'll say it again. I don't care that you question my beliefs. But don't put yourself on a pedistal while you do it. You have absolutely no proof that God doesn't exist. I have no doubt at all that you could site tons of scientific examples about the nature of the universe, about Biblic events, and about human nature. I'm not debating that. Science is the means by which we make sense of the universe, and it is extremely important. You don't have to be an atheist to believe in science. Furthermore I have read much literature which paints the founder of my church in a fraudulent light. Some of it is compelling. The rest is obviously hostile. When doing research, it is important to examine not only the nature of the material, but also the source, and the purpose for which it was written. You say I myself have never presented any evidence to the contrary. Maybe that's true for you. But for me I have shared stories about my own experiences, only to be given not only skeptisism, but blatent dismissal. Skeptisism is fine. I've said time and time again, and I sincerely mean it that I'm not writing this to convert you or anyone else. But because you - most of you - are so incredibly hostile towards religion in general, I honestly feel like if I did do a little research to provide you with hard - or even soft - evidence, it wouldn't matter. Because you do not generally "just" ask questions. You ask them with a very critical tone, which, given how many of my responses have been taken, leads me to believe you don't really care about my answers. Perhaps I'm completely wrong about you all, and your intentions. If I have misjudged you so completely, then I really am sorry, because I'm not here to make enimies. I'll be happy to attempt to supply you with at least some evidence if you actually want it. But one thing you have to realize about this subject is that there are going to be many things about it that can't be proven by scientific inquiry. Some can, certainly. But much really is based on faith, and on personal revelation. You scorn the words "I feel that it is true", and given your standing I suppose I can't blame you. But the Holy Ghost, that personage of spirit which acts as our constant companion is a deliverer of truth. I know that's probably impossible to take seriously. But I have felt it. Not a lot, but enough to have a firm belief that it's there. Nevertheless I often seek answers to better understand the God whom I follow. Those answers lead me to read many things, the Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants, the Pearl of Great Price, addresses from our line of prophets and other church leaders. And all of it has led me to the firm belief that this, if it truly is fiction, is the most elaborate and well-thought out piece of fiction in the whole of human history. But if it is not. If there is even a shred of truth to it as I believe there to be, then the connections that exist between all of the scriptures, and the revelations delivered to us by our leaders is absolutely amazing, and is worth following. I know that I will never go astray by living my life in harmony with the gospel of Jesus Christ as the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints presents it. Furthermore, everything around me, from the workings of the human body, the landscape of our world, the elaborate phinomena that is our cosmos, the intricacies of the millions of species sharing our world, the technology that is not seen, but is indisputably there, the beauty of this world, and the knowledge I attained in the temple ... all of it testifies to me that we are the product of masterful creation, and that all of this was created using rules, for a purpose.
That said, if we are to have a contest of sitations and indisputable evidence, I will probably lose. I don't keep websites and links handy to to dispute doctrine with atheists, or really anyone else for that matter. So it's going to take some time to deliver such things to you. Given how these discussions have gone in the past, I find myself wondering if it's really worth the effort, and yes, if you're really interested in what my findings produce. If you are, I'll be happy to oblige. If not, tell me so I don't waste my time, or anyone else's.
Well now... Upon further examination it would appear Mother Theresa was a very bad example. Still, you get my point.
BG, I'm not gonna be a broken record. if you can't trust that when I say we wouldn't have asked questions if we didn't want answers, that's your own damn problem.
cause, regardless of how such posts come across to you, I know what others are aiming for; answers. answers that, time and time again, even demonstrated in your second to last post, you fail to provide.
and, when you bring up things you classify as answers, as Cody said, things like, "I feel God all around me," and "experiences I've had" don't cut it.
if anything, such responses affirm my atheism all the more, cause, clearly, it's impossible for you to come up with anything else.
So wait a minute: you've never bothered to research that question? You've believed, without verification, that a bunch of Hebrews migrated to the North American continent?
BG, you are asking us to do what is called proving a negative. This is logically impossible. I'll illustrate.
Let's say that I were to proclaim that BG is an eggbeater. You, not being an eggbeater, would say, "No I'm not." It would then be up to me to prove that you actually are an eggbeater. It is impossible to prove the negative of you not being an eggbeater.
You are claiming there is a god. I say, "no there's not". It is now up to you to go, "hey look, here's god, I have him in this jar, and i can demonstrate it". It is impossible to prove the negative.
You are also using what is called an argument from ignorance. This is where you say, "well I don't have a better answer, so this one must be true." You say that in your life, you have feelings which can only be explained by God, and thus you believe in him. This is proposterous, and an argument from ignorance.
You are saying that because God is the only answer you can come up with, it must be the true one. This is simply evidence of a lack of imagination, not an actual piece of evidence for god. It just means that you believe in god, it does not make him exist.
Lastly, stop using the word faith and truth interchangeably. If the holy spirit delivered truth, it would not require faith. Faith is the maintenance of a belief without proof. Truth is a provable fact. That means that the moment the holy spirit delivers truth, he stops requiring faith. You either have faith, or you have truth, you cannot have both. They are not interchangeable.
The fact that you can't deliver evidence for your beliefs should worry you BG, but it doesn't. It should make you wonder why you hold the beliefs in the first place, if you have nothing to support them.
As for me lumping you all together, I'll clue you in on something. You all read the same book and believe its true. If you want to be treated differently, make yourself different. Say, "Nope, the bible isn't true, we're going with Moby Dick". In which case I will be glad to start an entirely different dialogue on the foundations of your beliefs in Moby Dick. If you want to be treated different, make yourself different.
The bible itself contains horrible acts and commandments, that makes it a horrible book which should not be followed. Until you stop believing in it, and until you stop calling it the word of God, you will be treated like every other christian.
Yes, I do know good christians, but oddly, when they do the things I consider good, they do things unchristian. I'm not saying you can't be or aren't a good person, I'm saying the things you belief in are wrong and perpitrate cruelty and hatred against others. If you personally believe that homosexuals will not go to hell, then congratulations, you no longer believe in the bible. Thus, cannot call it the inspired word of god, because you no longer believe in it. One crack destroys your argument. So you might want to sit back and decide if you truly believe what you say you believe.
Alright. You've all made your points quite clear. I had a much different response than this, but somehow as I was writing it the whole thing disappeared. Turns out when you hit escape while typing in this field everything vanishes; good to know. I don't have time to re-write, so here's the point. I do not have that much evidence at my fingertips at the moment. So it is going to take time. But as I learn things, I will be happy to post their sources, that you may read and decide for yourselves. I do not expect you to accept the concepts of faith and the Holy Ghost. If your belief in anything spiritual is as non-existent as it seems, then that concept would probably sound rediculous. But nor do I think anything I do come up with will ever convince you. Nonetheless that judgment is not mine to make. For now, please just remember that Christianity is not the only religion in the world, and that while I do in fact believe in the Bible and Book of Mormon both, I also realize that they are books written by the hands of men in another time long ago. They are absolutely enspired by and the word of God, and many of the teachings and prophecies there-in do apply to our lives today. but there are many things written about - such as the keeping of slaves and the way of sacrifice which are from a time long ago. It is important to understand the whole picture. And the only way to really do that is to cross-reference passages of scripture, and learn about that time period and the peoples who lived in it. Remember there is a why to the events of the scriptures, and not just a what. I'm hardly a religious scholar. But the scriptures and addresses contained at http://lds.org are full to overflowing with such cross-references. Modern technology has made it much easier to do this. I don't expect you to read through all of that, but just know that it's there. You can find many of your answers there if you know where to look. But without understanding the fundimentals of what we believe (which are easily accessible there too) it might be hard to understand it all. Maybe not. Who knows. I doubt, if you believe this to be such a falacy that you wil have either the time or inclanation to search about this, but if you do, I hope you will come to understand that our beliefs are peaceful and interesting. There is also http://mormon.org, which is a site dedicated to answering the many questions people have about us. Feel free to do whatever you like with this information. If you come back to contend it or ask questions I will try to satisfy you to the best of my ability.
but, that's exactly what we're saying, BG. you can't, in your own words, justify your beliefs.
you have to say, "go to my church's website to read up on them". then, assume we won't take the time to do so, when in actuality, it's you who isn't taking the time to answer questions that have been put forth.
whereas, when Cody states something about why your belief system is inaccurate, flawed, or whatever other term you wanna use, using actual biblical evidence to support those claims, you come back and criticize his points.
so, as Cody also said, it sounds like you should examine what it is you really believe.
after all, believing something just cause you're told it's true, or, you believe it to be true, or cause a particular something "feels right" is absolutely nonsensical.
I think I've justified my beliefs in my own words quite often. I've explained many times what we believe, and I've explained to you why I personally follow those beliefs. But to you it is unjustified, just as phrases like "Joseph Smith was a fraud" or "There is no God" etc are completely unjustified in my eyes. Very rarely does anyone site any material to support their claims. it does happen sometimes, but not much. Instead, where I give my reasonings for my beliefs I find myself reading stuff about being an egg-beater. Even the passages in the bible, when they are quoted and not merely referred to are a couple of verses without any additional context. I have attempted to create context at times in my own words. I have even challenged You, Lightning to find fault with some of the things said by my own church's leaders. I direct you to the origins of our beliefs because they will give you a much broader and more detailed sense of those beliefs than I can without spending hours typing novels. I don't have that kind of time; I work full time right now. I began speaking on this particular topic to call out the inaccuracies of this woman who is spreading false information about my Church, not to debate whether or not my church is true. I've agreed to post things as I find them. I assume - perhaps falsely - that there is no interest in anything I post because of my past experiences with some of you. Then you chide me for directing you towards the source of our beliefs. Yet I myself am directed to anti-religious sites by you where I find Atheist's oppinions on why I'm so wrong. And why not? If I want to learn about atheists would I not read material devoted to the subject? I certainly wouldn't try to get a sense of where you're coming from by asking a religious believer, even if some of them may actually be quite insightful. DO what you like with where I've directed you. You have questions about what you read, ask away. You want me to eventually provide some additional source material? In time I'll be happy to do so. I say in time because as I said I don't have the time right now to hunt it down. I have a life to live, just like all of you.
I have stumbled across an interesting site. I haven't had a chance to browse through much of it, and so I can not verify its content. Furthermore I do not know whether it is sanctioned by the LDS church. But if nothing else perhaps it will provide you with interesting reading, and another perspective. I myself plan to explore this at some point soon.
Here is the site:
http://www.bookofmormonevidence.org/
For a guy who works full time, you seem to have an awful lot of downtime just like the rest of us.
BG. One thing I've noticed is that you seem to not be able to give examples. I've given several examples of my points on this board alone. Yet all you seem to be able to do is give cute stories. Why is that?
might I also point out, BG, that using the, "I have a life, and don't have time for this" argument, is just another poor excuse for you to, in your mind, justify walking away from the bigger picture?
I mean, come on, now. we all have lives; some of us also work. yet, we still find time to participate in other things we find enjoyable.
if you don't have answers, you oughta be man enough to say so. stop hiding behind this cloud of, "oh, these are my beliefs, I assure you. I simply don't have time to go into more detail".
saying religious believers are insightful about atheism, is the craziest thing I've heard in awhile. especially, when most of those individuals have never talked to/interacted with us in the first place.
what you're calling insight, is, more than likely, misconceptions that, instead of asking us for clarification, you believe what those who are religious spout, cause it "feels right", as I'm sure you'd argue.
while you may not have time, I will continue to make time to dispell people's attitudes, like those you and others who share your beliefs have displayed.
I will do so because it's important, not just for myself, but for the world as a whole, to see and experience the necessity of critical, logical thinking.
if I can prove to one person that all the beautiful things religious people attribute to being so due to a higher power, are even more so as an atheist, I'll be even more satisfied than I already am.
GLORY, you're CERTAINLY FORGIVEN, and I, MYSELF, have that VERY SAME FLAW of IMPULSIVELY SPEAKING, so this is something that we BOTH can ask the LORD to heal us from.
Below is taken from the www.letusreason.org site:
In Response to all the Religions
Why do Christians claim Jesus is God? Why do we ignore other teachers and teachings from other religions. Why do we say He is the only way and we cannot accept that there are other ways to God? These are the questions most often asked about us.
When we look at other religions they are not just asking us to add on their teacher but to ignore Jesus, and give their leader equal or a greater prominence. Jesus is then superceded by another, something no Christian would never do. Many leaders of these other religions often are opposed to what Jesus said or they change His statements to make them suitable in their own religious framework. Jesus asked the people to follow him alone, not only for that time and then look for another afterwards. Islam, Bahai, Mormonism [and others] all claim their prophet was to come with a new revelation in line with all the prophets. But why should accept these men’s claims unless they have proof. If Jesus is God follow him, if Mohammed, Baha’u’llah, Buddha or Krishna is God then follow him. Just about anyone can claim to be God and many have. Even in our modern times, there have been many but it is a whole other thing to prove it. Only one came from heaven died and raised from the dead, and ascended back to where He came from. This becomes the eliminating factor that makes it the Grand Canyon jump that no one can survive.
Some claim there are similarities to the moral ethical commands of Judaism/Christianity and other religions, such as in the teachings in Buddhism. This can be agreed upon to a certain extent. However there is a historical and Biblical reason for this. Religion can instill moral values and improve ones life temporarily but in the end it cannot affect our eternal state that continues after this life. The reason is that it does not have the solution to mans disease, it does not have the cure.
Romans chapter1 teaches that we all had a common ancestry and had the knowledge of God in common until mankind left the truth and started to worship the creation (paganism) instead of the creator of creation. From the time of Genesis God gave one man and woman together to be husband and wife and make a family. There was harmony in the family. Man knew it was wrong to murder, steal and lie from the beginning.
Rom 1:19-25: “Because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools, and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man-- and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things. Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.”
Romans 1:28-32: “And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful; who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.” Notice these are things that religions address, moral and ethical issues.
Also, we all have a conscience to instruct us in the basic guidance of what is right and wrong, he is like the umpire in certain respects. It is built into us as instinct to know what to do and not to do certain things. For example no matter what continent someone is on they know its wrong to murder another person. This would only change if a whole society or culture mandated a opposite philosophy as law which would go against ones conscience. The Bible also teaches that God has put eternity in our hearts. Man knows what he sees in this lifetime is not all there is. This is why almost unanimously all religions have a teaching on an afterlife, its built in knowledge there is an unseen afterlife. So we can trace many of the moral codes in the various religions to a common source from mans beginnings. But then Christianity rises above all the rest of the worlds religions in that it explains these thing in truth by the one who is the source of all things.
Even within the framework of Judaism and Christianity men like Moses and the prophets or Paul and Peter might have been replaced by other equally good men, but it is not so with Christ. On this theme Charles Gore writes: “To recognize this truth is to be struck by the contrast which in this respect Christianity presents to other-'religions. For example, the place which Mohammed holds in Islam is not the place which Jesus Christ holds in Christianity, but that which Moses holds in Judaism. The Arabian prophet made for himself no claim other than that which Jewish prophets made, other than that which all prophets, true or false, or partly true an partly false, have always made,--to speak the word of the Lord. The substance of Mohammedanism, considered as a religion, lies simply in the message which the Koran contains. It is, as no other religion is, founded upon a book. The person of the Prophet has its significance only so far as he is, supposed to have certificated the reality of the revelations which the book records.
Gautama, again, the founder of Buddhism, one, I suppose, of the noblest and greatest of mankind, is only the discoverer or rediscoverer of a method or way, the way of salvation, by which is meant the way to win final emancipation from the weary chain of existence, and to attain Nirvana, or Parinirvana, the final blessed extinction. Having found this way, after many years of weary searching, he can teach it to others, -but he is, all the time, only a preeminent example of the success of his own method, one of a series of Buddha's or enlightened ones, who shed on other men the light of their superior knowledge....”
The men who inaugurated these religious systems did not remain as the fountain source of all that they proposed, they were all cut short by the enemy of mankind, death. Nor do they remain as living executors of the order in the universe but have relinquished any control they had to another.
So many say I believe in Jesus, what they mean is they believe He existed and is a great teacher and a good man, but not that He is who Christians (and the Bible) claim He said He is. How do we know that that He claimed He was God? The Bible says this. It is this same Bible that Jesus quoted from the Old Testament about His teachings and Himself in prophecy.
If this is not true, then Jesus is neither a good man nor a true teacher. What other teacher do you know that said to make Jesus our Lord and follow Him ONLY. Or claimed they created the universe and then had organic miracles to prove it. If we look at the three or four main religions it was NOT Mohammed, Baha’u’llah, Krishna nor Buddha that claimed this,-- they couldn't. The Christian Gospel is not one truth among many “truths” that people nowadays can choose from, like going to a smorgasbord and choosing
what one will or will not eat. It is either all true or not true at all. Because it claims to be all true and it is God who is watching over His word to preserve it.
Are you an honest skeptic willing to look at the evidence? We welcome those who are pursuing truth. There is an immense difference between a dishonest and honest skeptic. A dishonest skeptic will not believe even if they have the evidence, they will not call it evidence even if it is. It is then when the religious person needs to check his own heart to see if they care for truth.
If you can't recognize your sin then you can't have Jesus as a savior and you will as He said “unless you believe I Am you will de in your sins.” Jesus is the God of Moses that came only once in human flesh. This is the message of Christianity and it is what separates the wheat from the chaff of other religious teachers. If Jesus is who he said He is, (which is by proof, no one else has any contrary.) Then if you don't listen to Him it becomes the ultimate danger to ones soul. Religions are not all the same, like the example that all human are of the same species. No, not all religions lead to God. because there is only one from God. The only thing we do all hold these things in common is our sinful nature. But the solution is not the same in all religions that is offered to all. If it is only sin that needs to be given up for one to be pleasing to God or to go to heaven, than all we would need to do is give up our bad habits, but it goes much deeper than this.
All religion's have in common man pleasing God by his own hands and deeds, they are trying to reach upward to God. Christianity teaches man is unable to reach God, it took God himself to reach downward from heaven. He personally became a man to accomplish the solution for our dilemma which has always been sin.
Spiritual sayings are not enough it has to be the eternal truth that never changes from the God who came last of all in the person of JESUS CHRIST the ONLY TRUE GOD and savior. Christianity is summed up in the person of Christ. If you take Buddha out of Buddhism, Mohammed out of Islam…,Krishna out of Hinduism…, Baha'u'lla out of Bahaism…you still have their teachings intact, they are all doing quite well without their originator and teacher not being alive today. If you take Christ out of Christianity, if He didn’t rise you have nothing. All the religions “ point to' the graves of their leaders, no matter how brave or how ingenious they are. They all lie there waiting for their day to stand before the God they wanted to know; only Christianity points to an empty tomb and the promise to empty the graves by the one who rose first to live eternally.
None of these men were confirmed by the power of God, they are still dead, Jesus was resurrected and will judge the living and the dead.
John 3:19-21: “And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. “For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. “But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.” How does one know whether they practice the truth or a lie? By coming to the light (truth) found in Christ and the Bible.
Salvation is not by believing in God but by believing in the gospel
To believe in God only makes us no longer an atheist. We are then a theist, but no one could have there sins forgiven by just believing in God. One must believe in the God who became man and died for your sins to be washed away. It is an act of unprecedented love that is not seen in any other religion. No other came from heaven and died for your sins while you rejected and hated Him. What Jesus did would be like you taking your worst enemy, someone who did evil to you personally, out to the best dinner he ever had and treat him as family and give the very best you have.
1 Peter 3:15: "Sanctify the lord in your hearts and always be ready to give a defense. To everyone who asks you a reason for the hope that is in you." Not many people have hope and some have a false hope. All need hope but it needs to be true or its not real hope. As Christians were are asked to explain and defend the truth of Christ and God. So if we do this, don’t be offended, we only want you to come into a relationship with the same God that we now know. It is for no other reason than out of love and care for you as individuals. Because God cares so do we, Jesus Christ is still alive and changes hearts and lives today as He did when He first came nearly 2,000 years ago.
Maybe your tire from all the religious activities, the rituals you do; all the do's and don'ts you have to obey to please God. Jesus offered - “Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. “Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. “For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.” (Matt 11:28-30)
Of all the religions in the world and all the good that mankind has done in the name of these religions, there is only one person who stands out among the others. There have been more sermons spoken and books written on Jesus of Nazareth than any other individual in history. He alone stands out among any other religious teacher.
Now before I go into proving this, we can honestly say that each religions founder to the adherents of that religion believe their founder stands out. That is the very reason they follow the religion's of their particular founder. It is attractive to them because they see some unique redeeming quality in it, that they do not see somewhere else.
But being different and being a beacon to a certain culture at a certain time does not make the religion or its teacher possess the truth.
Today there are many “faiths” but the bible teaches there is only one faith, the one delivered to the saints once and for all. A recent poll taken found that 67% of Americans believe there is no such thing as absolute truth. For many people, choosing which religious system to join does not involve considering whether it is true. They choose what appeals to them, what works for them (pragmatism). In Omni magazine a number of years ago it stated it doesn’t matter what you believe as long as it works for you. This has been embraced as the norm to know what is right and good. Unfortunately what works is no test for truth as something can work and not be based on truth at all. Something is not made true because we believe it. Most people today choose a religious system that appeals to their good nature, what they are comfortable with. If it works for them they are satisfied. If there is some self-improvement they can work into their lives that will make them happy that’s is enough to justify it is right and from God.
Different religions may “work” for different people in some ways. When exercising our personal freedom of choice it cannot solve the issues of life, death, or God without considering the real truth! There are major differences to be considered. Our choice will not be satisfied by similar substitutes that change one’s present behavior and not their inner corrupt nature and their destination in the afterlife. God’s truth is from His nature and it is eternal it will affect us in an eternal way. One can be satisfied with what they have arrived at not knowing that they would have struck gold if they would have kept on digging.
With the option of various faiths one can pick their religion or spirituality that is conducive to their lifestyle they want to live by. They can choose to believe in many Gods and become a Hindu. If monotheism and strict rituals appeals to them they can become Muslim. If they want to have an ethical way to live and do good without having God in their life they can become a Buddhist or another religion that has ethics without God. In this world there are many philosophies and religions all competing for our hearts. When one searches for the truth they need to be aware of many things that we are often not attentive of. There has been TV shows and articles about people of all faiths praying for the sick and all seeing some results. Some did not know that others were praying for them. This seems to imply that spirituality is all multi faceted and that it does not matter what one believes or prays to. Our culture is very pragmatic in its approach accepting the premise if it has worked for someone it should be accepted as valid and true. One persons ceiling becomes another person’s floor.
This is what I call the leaky bucket syndrome. As one pours water into a gallon bucket with a hole in it, the water slowly leaks out. Then they go and find another bucket and pour the water into this bucket which they find has a hole in it and they go find a third bucket to pour the water into. But no matter how many buckets you use to replace the first one the water still leaks out. The moral of the story is, if you start with the wrong premise, with an untruth, it will always lose its attraction later on. It will always make less sense as one goes under the surface and finds the belief system they have held is filled with holes. The bible teaches us there is only one foundation we can build on, that is Jesus Christ.
Mankind has a great imagination and a pursuit of knowing so developments of spiritual beliefs have surfaced. We are essentially spiritual beings because we have a spirit in a body that yearns to contact God our maker. In this world we have a smorgasbord of spirituality where one can eat freely to satisfy there hunger without knowing what they are eating. Before one fills themselves up on this spiritual food they need to see if the food they are ingesting is as healthy as they first thought. Certainly any newcomer to spiritual matters can be overwhelmed with all the claims and choices.
So who is right? Are they all right as some claim, only a few or is there only one that is right? Ask people of ten religions and you will probably get 10 answers. So what makes Jesus and Christianity different? Jesus is unique. He came down from heaven to reach man. While all religions are trying to reach up to God by the work of their own hands to please him. Instead God took the initiative and reached down to us. Why? Because we do not have the ability to please Him on our own. “He said to them, You are from below, I am from above; you are of this world, I am not of this world” (John 8:23).
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So why is Jesus different? Some say if you ignore the doctrine one can find the same promotion of practices in all religions. Yes there may be a few commonalities. This mostly comes from our living in a day of increased communication, and by these means our world has shrunk. This has led to more familiarity with the religious beliefs of other people and with it has come more tolerance finding what we have in common and ignoring the differences. We can as Christians respect people’s culture and choice but we do not have to agree with their religious system. Instead they need to hear the gospel and we are commanded to give it to them. After all, the gospel is God’s message of love to the people of the earth.
This is what separates Jesus and His offer of a relationship to God which we now call Christianity from all the other teachers of religions. If we take Buddha out of Buddhism it goes on. One can practice Buddhism divorced from its founder. If Krishna is removed from Hinduism the teachings and the techniques continue. One can practice Islam without Mohammed being alive. But if we take Jesus out of Christianity it crumbles. Because this religion (if I may be allowed to use the term), is based upon a person and His work done on the cross, not our work. Salvation rests on the person of Christ who must be alive or it cannot be carried out. He alone has come back to life. There is no other religious teacher who started their religion that has died, and is alive today. None. 2 Tim. 1:9-10 “Calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began, but has now been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who has abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel.” It was Jesus who died for everyone’s sins no other religious leader claims this.
If we look carefully there has never been another man or woman like Jesus. He never lied He only told the truth even when it offended people. He lied to no one even when it meant saving His life. He lived a life completely free from bad influences having total integrity. If he ran for a political office all the regular people who wanted an honest man would have voted for him. There was no one who could accuse him of any wrongdoing so they had to make up lies. They lied about what He said throughout his ministry and they even lied
about his being raised from the dead. People continue to lie about him and the Bibles record even to the point of the ridiculous. One of the allegations is that the Bible was written a hundred years later after His death involving no eyewitnesses. The records show that the writers claimed to be eyewitnesses.
He loved people more than anything in the world as He came to die so even his enemies can be forgiven. His life was an open book to all who wanted to know Him. He did nothing in secret. He was approachable by all willing to listen and to give perfect wisdom in every situation. Jesus did not “borrow” His teachings from anyone. His source was from God, “My doctrine is not Mine, but His who sent Me. If anyone wants to do His will, he shall know concerning the doctrine, whether it was from God or whether I speak of My own authority” (John 7:16,17).
His compassion was evident to all. He ate with the outcasts and undesirables of society. “And behold, a leper came and worshiped Him saying, ‘Lord, if You are willing, You can make me clean.’ Then Jesus put out His hand and touched Him saying, ‘I am willing; be cleansed.’ And immediately his leprosy was cleansed” (Matthew 8:2,3). While the Religious leaders of the day scorned certain groups of people especially those who were not Pharisees, He instead sat and talked and ate with them. He let them know they were loved and not rejected by God. He had compassion on those rejected by the religious society and was for the underdog. He lifted up those who were in despair and humbled those who elevated themselves. As Peter His disciple later writes “Therefore humble yourselves under the mighty hand of God, that He may exalt you in due time, casting all your care upon Him, for He cares for you” (1 Peter 5:6,7).
He gave us the highest standard of human morality and showed power to the helpless beyond any normal human ability. His abilities were supernatural as He was able to see into people’s hearts and know what they were thinking. He was able to heal with a word, not needing to be present. There has never been another like him before or afterwards. He affected our history in such a manner that we count our dating from the time he was born. There is hardly a religion that does not recognize Him today.
In 1970 years He has changed millions of lives for the better and still answers those who call upon him. No one can ever find a bad thing about him. They might find fault with the Church but they couldn’t with Jesus when He was alive, and cannot still today. Yet people ignore him and find others to esteem above him or just don’t believe a word He said that is recorded in the NT. So why do many people refuse His ability to have compassion and love them? Why do they hate him? Why do they oppose him? When He said He is the only way, truth and life for all people? With people always appealing to tolerance, why are they not tolerant to Jesus? The reason is because His statements of exclusiveness are disturbing.
Because He gives an absolute standard of truth. In a world where people are led by there feelings people become offended. He taught that we are not good in ourselves. So they look at His teachings as negative, as He addresses fallen mankind as sinners. “He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe in the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him” (John 3:36). “For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God” (Romans 3:23). But until one can comes to the realization that this is their state without Christ He can’t set them free.
If all the other religions are equally valid ways to God, then the Christian claim of Christ’s sacrifice on the cross as the one and only way would be impossible. It would be not just one of the many ways but the only wrong way. If we could work out our own salvation by our good deeds, religious rituals, and practices as each religion requires, God did not have to bring the solution for our sins by crucifixion. It would have been the only absolutely wrong thing to do!
If Jesus did not rise from the dead as He claimed then His claims and His followers are audacious, preposterous and they would be the greatest group of deceivers of all time. He would not be a good teacher to be listened to but should be rejected, despite all the other wonderful things that was said and done to better mankind. It either is truth and should be held onto like our being in a life raft alone in the middle of the sea or not a word should go into our ears. John Warwick Montgomery a respected theologian writes that: Christianity’s truth claim consists merely of a finger pointing back through time to an historical figure who divided world history into two parts—to Jesus of Nazareth—to His statements concerning Himself and true religion, and to the life He led attesting to the statements He made. An honest, historically accurate, scientific investigation of these data (involving chiefly a study of the documents collected in the New Testament) will show that Jesus claimed to be God Incarnate, that He described the only true (but not the only possible) religion consisting of fellowship with Himself, and that He attested His claims by a sinless life which profoundly affected everyone who crossed His path, and by a resurrection which left no doubt in the minds of eyewitnesses that He was in fact the true God (John W. Montgomery, The Shape of The Past: An Introduction to Philosophical Historiography, vol. 1, p. 328 1962).
No other religious teacher laid down their life for their followers like this and they certainly did not for those who opposed them and were enemies. “For when we were without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. For scarcely for a righteous man will one die; yet perhaps for a good man someone would even dare to die. But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us” (Romans 5:6-8).
To disbelieve in the historical recoded documents that we have today one must disregard our entire knowledge of Greco Roman history. Because our knowledge of these cultures and the past depends upon documentation that is far less adequate and evidential than the evidence we have for Jesus and the Bible.
Bible Scholar F. F. Bruce stated, “The historical ‘once-for-all-ness’ of Christianity which distinguishes it from those religious and philosophical systems, which are not specially related to any particular time, makes the reliability of the writings which purport to record this revelation a question of first-rate importance” (The New Testament Documents: Are They Reliable? p. 8).
Jesus made it clear that we must choose when we hear. We are either for him or against him. There is no neutral ground, for to make no choice is a choice in itself. Christianity is either true reality or a figment of people’s imagination. If not the truth it is then no more or less then the other religions, it is one option to choose among the others.
It is one thing to say God gave me a message. It is a whole other thing to say I am God and here is the message. Those who walked with Jesus were very careful to write down what they heard as eyewitnesses. Why believe and follow something that is not true. Peter writes “For we did not follow cunningly devised fables when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of His majesty. For He received from God the Father honor and glory when such a voice came to Him from the Excellent Glory: “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.” And we heard this voice which came from heaven when we were with Him on the holy mountain.” (2 Pet .1:16-18) Peter is referring to the transfiguration as they were able to see Jesus for who he really is. As He hid himself from the people’s eyes but revealed it to his three closest followers on the mountaintop. Peter later died for believing in Christ.
Another one of
the witnesses was John who later wrote in his first epistle, “That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, concerning the Word of life--the life was manifested, and we have seen, and bear witness, and declare to you that eternal life which was with the Father and was manifested to us--that which we have seen and heard we declare to you, that you also may have fellowship with us; and truly our fellowship is with the Father and with His Son Jesus Christ. And these things we write to you that your joy may be full” (I Jn.1:1-4). Christianity gives people the truth which in turn gives them an unfading happiness through life. Not a happiness that is dependent on circumstanced but a inner joy that can be constant.
The apostle Paul who was an adamant enemy of Christianity was on his way to his next extermination of Christians when he was convinced by an experience with Jesus. “I tell the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Spirit, that I have great sorrow and continual grief in my heart. For I could wish that I myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, to whom pertain the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service of God, and the promises; of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came who is over all, the eternally blessed God. Amen” (Romans 9:1-5).
People often ask the question “Can you prove Christianity is true?” “Have you seen God? In answering these questions- no I have not seen God physically but I have seen his touch on my life and numerous others to know it is real. After one comes into a relationship with Him they know the difference of before and after. There is a transforming power that is given to the recipient by faith. Christianity can be proven to be true because it rests on the claims of Christ. But the question that needs to be asked back is “will the person accept it if there is sufficient evidence.” Some do and some don’t despite the evidence that is presented.
In Heb.11:3 the word of God states that what we see is made by things we do not see, invisible things. In 1896 Roshen who began atomic physics discovered the X- ray and in 1923 began to discover through the electronic microscope that atoms were made of tiny particles of energy and out of these sub atomic particles are what all things were made of. Now what holds these atoms together? The nucleus of an atom are so changed that they should repel each other. There is some invisible force that holds it together. We cannot see this but reality and our experience tells us this is true. In Heb.1:3 it tells us Christ the architect of the universe holds all things together by the word of His power. Col.1:17 tells us “in Christ” all things consist and are held together. How is this possible that thousands of years before science discovered the laws and the mechanics to prove the things that could not be seen by the eye, the bible specifically describes. Science when it is truly scientific verifies the bible. So we are without excuse and have more knowledge then necessary to believe in our day and age.
It’s not that we don’t know God exists for we do. For the prophet Isaiah writes Isa.64:4 “For since the beginning of the world men have not heard nor perceived by the ear, nor has the eye seen any God besides You, who acts for the one who waits for Him.” Over 700 years later the apostle Paul in the New Testament writes. Rom.1:20 “For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, (not hidden) being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools, and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man-- and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.” This where the other religions were birthed from refusing the correct knowledge of God that was once universally known. We now have the God of Eastern thought as impersonal, God is everything and everything is God. This is now the new age concept of God as life force within all of creation. The Bible presents God as independent from His creation, the God of the Bible is personal and relational. Christianity believes and teaches that the Bible alone is the revealed Word of God. Even though it was written by men, the source of the authorship is God. This claim was not invented by the Church, but is the claim the Bible makes for itself. Men of God’s own choosing recorded the words that were heard from Him.
Christianity claims a moral certainty, to anyone who is willing to take the evidence and evaluate it in light of its historicity, prophecy and manuscripts. Christianity claims an external verification through evidence, as well as an internal witness through God. To those looking in from outside the Christian faith, they can be shown a great amount of evidence for its truth claims. But when a person becomes a Christian, the assurance of truth becomes reality. But this takes a step of faith to reach this point. This is not a blind faith but an evidential faith. We need to understand that there is no 100% evidence provided for the seeker. Despite less than 100% evidence it will not stop someone from coming to an accurate and appropriate conclusion. Faith is necessary to know God because God is invisible and He is infinite. We as creatures have been given a certain amount of proof to know He exists and what we need to know Him. This faith is much like a small child in the home of loving parent’s. When the child is hungry he or she knows (trusts) the parents provision for them, that they will not go hungry. The parents are watching out for the child because of a relationship of love. So although the child does not have the evidence that everyday the parents will feed him or her, the child trusts the parents. So 100% evidence is not necessary for one to come to God. Needless to say we find that people don’t apply the standard of 100% certainty to anything else for if they did- nothing would happen. No one makes decisions on 100% certainties for anything. To do so one would have to wait great lengths of time to make any move. When we buy something we are trusting that manufacturer that it will work like they say. When we drive on the road we are trusting the other drivers to obey the laws. There is no one that possesses 100% certainty for anything because we do not have perfect knowledge. God knows this and this is why He asks for us to exercise faith. Faith is trust and in this we can become certain, and have the assurance what He said is true. Only a portion of evidence is necessary to believe in the truth. It’s like being in a house with the lights out and the shades closed in the middle of a sunny day. Someone can come over and tell us to go outside to experience a beautiful day. We can stay in the dark and say I don’t believe its light or we can trust that person’s report and just walk outside. Or we can ask for some evidence by looking out the window. Looking out the window we have enough evidence that it is sunny like they say, but we are not experiencing it. If we go outside we can find the report true, it is a beautiful day. We can feel the sun on us and the breeze blowing. Faith without any action is not faith. After faith is exercised the complete evidence of it will be there. We then know what we believe.
Moses 1500 years before Christ came into the world incorporated the first five books of the bible. Then there are the words of the prophets that spoke throughout the nation Israel’s history. Because they turned their back on the Lord He sent them men calling them to repent and believe.
They also spoke of a future redeemer through Israel that would bring reconciliation to the whole world. Heb.1 tells us that God does not use prophets any longer to deliver His scripture to his people but it is by the ultimate message bearer, Jesus the Son of God. So the eyewitnesses of Jesus wrote down His words as the final revelation to man. It was climatic and final because it was God who became a man this time. He didn’t send ANOTHER PROPHET BUT CAME HIMSELF. He said He was sent directly from heaven. So when someone refuses the New Testament record they are rejecting God almost face to face. “But Isaiah is very bold and says: “I was found by those who did not seek Me; I was made manifest to those who did not ask for Me” (Rom. 10:20). No seeks God on their own but it is He who is seeking us. Have you been sought? Has He come to you in ways only you would personally know?
It’s not often a matter of evidence needed to believe but resistance to the truth of God keeps us in unbelief. It is something we all have in our own fallen nature, as the Scripture says the natural man cannot receive the things of the Spirit of God. As Jesus spoke to Nicodemus He said in John 3:16-21: “For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.” It’s about dealing with our sin nature of which no other religious system has an answer for.
The light spoken of here is synonymous with God and His word, as both are called light. God is light and in Him is no darkness at all. The gospel is so simple that it disturbs those who consider themselves intelligent and important people of the world.
Are you looking for reasons to believe? Are you an honest seeker of the truth? Are you looking for reasons to disbelieve? Prov.8:17: “I love those who love me, and those who seek me diligently will find me.” You may not have enough information to satisfy you about Jesus, but are you open enough, willing to hear and to gain understanding. Has He drawn you so that you now want to know Him?
The problem is not a matter of “I can’t believe because the facts have not been presented” but it is more like “No matter what proof you present, I won’t accept it.” If anyone is truly interested in evaluating the evidence for proof of Christianity’s truth understand that God , the God has something wonderful for your life “For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, says the LORD, thoughts of peace and not of evil, to give you a future and a hope. Then you will call upon Me and go and pray to Me, and I will listen to you. And you will seek Me and find Me, when you search for Me with all your heart.” (Jer. 29:11-13) God’s will is for a person to believe and repent. As it is written God is not willing for any to perish but that all will come to repentance. We have the ability to do so but it becomes a matter of choice. God has done all to prove His love for us by sending His Son to earth to be rejected by those He loved and cared for. To die an excruciating death, humiliated before the people He came to forgive yet He did not retaliate. He continues to hold out open arms to anyone who will come to him and will close them around those who come to the cross for forgiveness of their sins.
Absolutes and Relativism
The art of humanism in today's world
Each person and culture has developed their own definition of what right or wrong is. This theory is morally unacceptable because it implies an act can be right for someone even if it is cruel, hateful or harmful. Culture or ones personal preference does not dictate what is right or wrong. Neither can religions, for each area may have its own religion that came down to them from previous generations. There must be a greater standard, one that is more correct and more sure for us to live by. Otherwise we are left to invent our own opinions that will change in time because of our culture.
The definition of Relative truth- Truth that is true at only one time and at one place. It's true to some people and not to others. It's true now but it may not have been true in the past and it may not be again in the future, it's always subject to change. It is also subject to perspective of people
The definition of absolute truth-Whatever is true at one time and at one place is true at all time's and at all places. What is true for one person is true for all person's. Truth is true whether we believe it or not. Truth is discovered or it is revealed, it is not invented by a culture or by religious men.
There are absolutes, all of reality proves this. What we find is that the Christian world view is the most consistent with reality. There is truth and there is falsehood one cannot find what they are wrong in unless they have an ultimate standard. God believes in objective truth because he is that standard. The difference is that as Christians we believe God determines what is true and right which he has instructed in the Bible. Those who hold to the relative position believe man does and he can change as he wills.
EX: of absolutes - we all need air to breathe, to live we all need food and water. this is true for all people everywhere at all times. Gravity works the same everywhere here on the planet.
EX: one cannot be dry and wet at the same time. Something cannot be true and not true at the same time, one must be false or both, but both cannot be true. One cannot go forward and backward at the same time. One cannot live in the past and the future at the same time. Time goes forward it cannot go backward. No one is getting younger instead of older. You cannot have two Mts. Without a valley. You cannot have a stick with one end. You cannot be asleep and awake at the same time.
EX: George Washington was our first president but he no longer is. His being the first president of the US was true for all time and for all people in all places. There will never be a place at any time this is not true. He can never be the 20th president, So it is an absolute truth but for his time.
Believing something that is not true.
What is true for one person is true for all people-If the ancients people believed the earth was flat it is true for all men at all times and places. It will never be false that ancient man believed the earth was flat. It may not actually be true that the earth is flat, but it is true they believed this. So this is truth for their time, but that is not a description of absolute truth. If one only believes it to be true then they are not making a truth claim. Belief statements are not truth statements, one is simply declaring their belief. Such as If someone said I can fly. To you that belief may be true, but not the statement itself. Truth is to be a justifiable belief. It needs to be proven at least logically and agree with reality.
A religious ex. God cannot exist and not exist at the same time. Only one of these views is true, because we are dealing with reality. They are contradictory and the world should be consistent with reality.
Relativism cannot be true- claims of relativism depend on which vantage point the observer stands from. Relativism cannot be true- claims of relativism depend on which vantage point the observer stands from. If your standing on the right side or the left side it all becomes the perspective of the viewer. One could actually say an event did not occur from their vantage point while others experienced it.
If relativism were true then the universe could contain actual contradictory conditions and truths, which is impossible. Opposites cannot both be true, its contradictory and denies the laws of non contradiction. This law is undeniable, you can’t not use it without using it and you can’t deny it without using it, so its literally undeniable. Contradictions both cannot be true at the same time so the relative view is false. Ex. If relativism is true than to an atheist God does not exist, but to a believer he also does exist. Opposites cannot both be true. If relativism is true then nothing could be true. Why? For one cannot claim that it is an absolute truth, that something is only relative truth for him. This is like saying I’m absolutely certain everything is relative. Then everything isn’t relative if he is absolutely certain. But if everything is relative to each different person, to this one , and that one , ad infinitum, then its not true at all and everyone is believing falsehood. If relativism were true you can never be mistaken or wrong or learn anything. Because its true to me at that time and it may not be another time , by my own standard even if I’m wrong its true. You can only find out what is wrong if something is true. There has to be a ultimate standard of measure that is truth.
The problem lies in the root of relativism, that there is no absolute truth.
EX: 2 + 2= 4. But what if someone told you it was 5, 2 +2 always equals 4, someone comes along and says it's now 5. You can change it, but it would not be consistent to truth and reality. For something to be true it must be true before, true now, and true in the future. Truth does not change . Because it's absolute , especially when it comes to God. What if you learned 2 + 2 your whole life were 5 does that make it true? Or were you taught falsely. For one to learn their must be truth, absolutes or all education is a farce. You’d be ever learning and not coming to the knowledge of the truth (1 Tim3:7) So if you took 10 years of college education at the end you’d be right back where you started and the no better for it. Because what you knew when you started, which was a state of ignorance on the subjects you were going to become educated on, 10 years later did not progress you in the pursuit of learning.
The Greek philosopher Protagoras said "man is the measure of all things." This means each person can decide there own standard for right and wrong living. What is morally right for me, may be wrong for another. this is the essence of relativism.
This means cruelty and hate can be right for someone to practice. If society practiced this we would self destruct. Our culture has community values that are shared to protect harm to others.
If all truth is relative than would you feel safe to let your child play with a child molester since that is his truth. Would you allow someone who does human sacrifices befriend your family? Obviously relative truth can sometimes be harmful.
How do we find out if what we believe is relative or absolute?
There are standards we all use each and every day in science, mathematics. We calculate a space shots by using mathematics . In construction we measure what we cut so it will fit the blueprints of what is being built. All these transfer over into different languages and cultures but we share it as universal. These are not absolute truths since we can change them and still share together the same measurements but they are a standard that we all operate in. But their are other laws if violated have drastic consequences. It doesn't matter what country your in or what race you are or what religion you practice if you fall off a building you will hit the ground the same. So gravity is a universal principle for
man. the same would be for deep sea pressure. if you go down to quick or too far you get the bends. These are natural laws we are to respect or we can be see drastic results. Nature can't be changed ,like mathematics it is constant adhering to laws because nature was made by the creator.
We can’t test truth by our feelings. You can’t feel error, but you can use your mind to think truth. You cannot distinguish good and evil by your feelings because evil (sin) feels good.
Truth is not the opposite of falsehood it is the absence of falsehood. Evil is not just the opposite of good, it is the absence of good. To decide that something is evil means one must have a standard of truth. Whether it is the Bibles or their own they are living by someone's standards.
Our society has become self deciding what is good, humanism is trying to do what is right without God in the equation. The humanist doesn't need religion because he is confident that the heart of man is basically good. Even though humanism as an "ism" shares many common practical values with Christianity (ethics?), but the humanistic concept of "good" is on a collision course with Jesus' view of "good." The humanist's standard of goodness must be low enough for the average person to be able to meet it requirements consistently. God's standard of goodness is perfection. This is why a humanist must make his own standard otherwise he will be unable to meet it. And of course that can all change in a whim. Although humanism can make the world better in some respects its standards still are relative to the culture and time. For example many things were given in the past as cures for sicknesses would be rejected today as harmful. But at the time it was with good intentions. So humanism has no cure for evil nor can it explain it. Christ who is God and the ultimate good is the only answer.
"The heart is deceitfully wicked,( incurably sick). (Jer. 17:9). God the creator is the only one capable of fixing what is broken in man. We need a touch from a divine agency the great physician himself. Their is only one universal remedy to restore our alienation from God and cleanse us from guilt. God has given mankind the blood of Christ as the cure to remove the innate problem of sin. No other religion claims to solve the sin factor because they don't believe it exists, this includes the humanist. Their remedy is education and ethics. I don't believe this is the answer, some of the most depraved people in the world are well educated with Ph.D.s. If one educates a thief, you only increase his capacity to steal, education is not the solution. Neither can we make a sinner look any better with solutions from man. We don't need a cover-up for our falling short, but an uncovering to see our sin that separates us from God.
When we see our sickness and how desperate we are in need of his cleansing from sin. Then we are open to the truth that is found in only one place.
What Jesus does is from the inside out, what man does is from the outside which can never affect our fallen nature inside. Humanism like religion gives us rules and regulations to live by, only Jesus reforms us from the inside.
*snores*
Bible-thumpers trying to sound intellectual and failing miserably.
Its like they think the more words they use, the more chance they have of people forgetting that they're spouting complete bullshit. Its still a circular argument, no matter how many words you try and rape it with.
also, the bigger sounding words they use, the more educated they're convinced they sound.
The last post by MyGodChosen is most likely another copy paste job. He has proven time and again that he doesn't have a single thought of his own.
I just realized I never defined what a circular argument is. I'm sorry, let me rectify that.
A circular argument, or circular logic is when you prove something with itself. GodMommyBoy up there is saying that the bible is true. To which we say, prove it. To which he says, it says right here that the bible is true, in this passage in the bible. The bible says the bible is true, and the bible is true, so then the bible must be true. Its nonsense.
Oh, and I find it funny that the scientific principles quoted as fact and given as examples in that little shpeel, are completely wrong. For example, the bends is not caused by going down too quickly, or going to deep. If you go down too quickly, you can kill yourself with the changing pressure, but that isn't the bends. If you go down too deep, you get crushed. The bends is when you come up, not when you go down. Its caused by gas which have been forced out of your blood by the pressure. If you come up to fast, they don't get absorbed again, and bad things happen. I find it funny they can't even get their own examples right. Not surprising mind you, but funny.
GOD IS ETERNAL
The Eternity of God
God always existed. He is eternal. We live in time and space it is linear. Eternity if described in human terms stretches backwards and forwards with no end. Eternity is of perpetual duration neither having beginning nor end. This is where God dwells in. The high and lofty one who dwells in eternity. this is also how God sees things, before he created one thing he knew the beginning from the end of all things.
Question- If God created all things then who created God or did he create himself?
Answer-. First you can’t make something out of nothing without an eternal being already being there. You can’t exist and non exist at the same time. You can’t cause your own existence. Being in a state of potentiality and actuality at the same time.
If God is caused by another than he is not God the uncaused cause of all things. Then there is something that is greater and that becomes God. Finite things need a cause, not infinite things. Something does not come from out of nothing. Without an eternal something you cannot have creation. God is uncaused, everything created is caused, nothing is Self caused or uncaused. If it is caused by something else, then it is not eternal. The world, the universe cannot be uncaused because it is not eternal. Science has proven this fact. Whatever comes to be has a beginning and is caused, which means itself is not the source . What is the cause must be before the effect. What begins has a beginning and certainly will have an end at least in the present state of things. God cannot be dependent on another but is a self contained and dependent being. Ex. 3:15 " I am who I am" Jesus applies this name of god for himself in Jn.8:58 " I tell you before Abraham was, I am." Ego Emi; which is in the present indicative active form of the verb "to be" meaning, what is true of this being before is true of him today, that he has no change from eternity past to eternity future. Never changing always the same what he has now he always had. He is the source of all things, He is absolute and constant within himself no beginning no middle nor end. A Billion years from now he will still have the same being not increasing in knowledge one iota, nothing can be added to his being. Isa. 40:13-14 Who has directed the Spirit of the LORD, or as His counselor has taught Him? With whom did He take counsel, and who instructed Him, and taught Him in the path of justice? Who taught Him knowledge, and showed Him the way of understanding? Acts 15:18 tells us "Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world (from eternity).His knowledge encompasses all, there is no type of weakness in Gods nature he is omniscient , all is perfect, if not then those things cannot be eternal or part of his infinite nature.
God is infinite having no cause. All that is finite and created have a cause. So all that is infinite is unlimited and must be the cause of all things. He cannot give a beginning to himself, if he had a beginning no matter how far back in time or eternity he could no longer be infinite, he could no longer possess the highest degree of perfection.
Eternity is self perpetuating it does not grow in degrees but is constantly the same, no change or sequence it is a permanent state of perfection .it is contrary to time by its nature. Nothing is before it. Eternity is the property of God, it is his intrinsic nature. All else spring forth from him by his will and for his pleasure.
God always existed he is eternal. We live in time and space it is linear. Eternity stretches backwards and forwards with no end. Eternity is of perpetual duration neither having beginning nor end. He is before all things and will be also afterward. This is where God dwells in. The high and lofty one who dwells in eternity. This is also how God sees things, before he created one thing he knew the beginning from the end of all things. His decrees are from eternity before anything was created Eph.1:4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, " Our redemption occurs after the world is created but the decrees were found in him in eternity. Ps 33:11The counsel of the LORD stands forever, the plans of His heart to all generations. Isa.41:4 Who has performed and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? 'I, the LORD, am the first; and with the last I am He.'" All things created are found in his eternal counsel, they are present in him from eternity even though they are not actually present in existence. Before he began to created one thing he knew the beginning from the end of all things. He does not know one thing now and another later even though they are brought in succession through time. God has his plans , his thoughts not bounded by time. They are present with him in even though their appearance in the world needs to be executed in succession to accomplish his plans. The only way to prove God and an eternal state of existence is for someone from outside time to send a message to those who exist in a time dimension. Isaiah 43:13 God proclaims that He is outside the time dimension. He also gives the proof by foretelling events before they occur (Isaiah 44:6-7, 41:21-23) .
Ps 90:1-2 : "LORD, You have been our dwelling place in all generations . Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever You had formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, You are God." He has always been there is no time assigned as to the beginning of his being.
2 Pet 3:8 But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. Charnock comments on this comparison of God and man "If a thousand years be but as a day to the life of God, then as a year is to the life of man, so are three hundred and sixty five thousand years to the life of God: and as seventy years are to the life of man. So are twenty five millions four hundred and fifty thousand years to the life of God. Yet there still is no proportion between time and eternity, we must dart our thoughts beyond al those, for years and days measure only the duration of created things…(On the eternity of God The existence and attributes of God Stephen Charnock p.287) In other words this is just a human comparison by God to communicate what time is in relation to him. Job 36:26"Behold, God is great, and we do not know Him; nor can the number of His years be discovered.
He is called the ancient of days" in that all time is flows from him, he being not subject to it. Ancient does not mean decaying or old, in that he cannot be young either.
All things find their source in God he holds incomprehensible power that cannot be apprehended by man. Nothing can into existence without him, He is the source of all and upholds all Col. 1:16-17 for by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.
Heb. 1:3 who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, All things are dependent upon God for their source of life Heb11:3 …the things which are seen were not made of things which are visible (invisible which are the atoms).
Isa. 55:8-9: "For My thoughts are not your thoughts, nor are your ways My ways," says the LORD.
"For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are My ways higher than your ways, and My thoughts than your thoughts. "Man cannot comprehend eternity since we are created beings found in time. We have limits God does not.. Gen.1:1 in the beginning God created…If we look back we cannot go further than the beginning of creation since we are creatures limited to time and made in time , so to understand the infin-
ite we are not capable of in the fullest sense. We may understand he is eternal and infinite but not comprehend the nature of it. As Zophar challenged Job in chpt.11:7 "Can you search out the deep things of God? Can you find out the limits of the almighty, they are higher than heaven." As believers we are given something more than those in OT times. 2 Cor.2:10-11: " But God has revealed them to us by his spirit, for the spirit searches all things, yes the deep things of God…Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. God is Spirit Jn.4 an uncreated infinite eternal spirit in essence and nature.
God is called the almighty which means he possesses all power among the other characteristics of his nature. This is united with his eternity of being so that all his attributes share equally in his unlimitedness. Rev 1:8: "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End," says the Lord, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty." Rev 1:17-8: the alpha and omega the almighty. He is the beginning of all and the end also existing outside the elements of creation. He is able to call things into existence from out of nothing. Creation by its own definition is bringing something into being from nothing
1 Tim 1:17: "Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, to God who alone is wise, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen."1 Tim 6:15-16: "…He who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings and Lord of lords, who alone has immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see, to whom be honor and everlasting power. Amen."
While God alone is eternal in an infinite sense, God can bestow an eternal nature to a creature who has a beginning such as angels and souls of mankind. Eternal life can be communicated to them but it is not part of their essential nature, it is not called their own. It is accidental , dependent on another for the duration of their existence since they are created as temporary. He can invest in them a new property so that they cannot perish, so they will spend eternity in a place of happiness or punishment as they choose the right and wrong that God offers. As creatures we grow in all things especially knowledge, we can acquire something and lose something, we mature. In Gods nature this is not so his being is always one and at the same point receiving nothing in addition nor can he lose anything he is always the same Ps 102:25-27Of old You laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the work of Your hands. They will perish, but You will endure; yes, they will all grow old like a garment; like a cloak You will change them, and they will be changed.But You are the same, and Your years will have no end.
What attacks Gods nature the most is idolatry, man erecting things made from their own hands or giving credence to the creation Rom.1:20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,
Applying that which is eternal ,omniscient, omnipresent to a corruptible nature vs.23 to change the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man and birds and four footed animals and creeping things." God who is separate from his creation has been degraded to be not only a created thing but the lowest order of species.
God's promises are forever, as he says 1 Pet 1:23-25having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever,… the word of the Lord endures forever." Now this is the word which by the gospel was preached to you.
Matt 24:35: "Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away. Lk.21:33
Isa. 55:11: "So shall My word be that goes forth from My mouth; it shall not return to Me void, but it shall accomplish what I please, and it shall prosper in the thing for which I sent it." God communicates to man in his language for mans sake. For the Christian he can be confident that what God says will be done and is perfect in its judgments.
Prov.8:23: says his wisdom is from everlasting Ps 119:89: "Forever, O LORD, your word is settled in heaven.’
Ps 119:160: "The entirety of Your word is truth, and every one of Your righteous judgments endures forever."
When God swares He does so by himself because their is none greater Gen.22:16 by myself I have sworn says the Lord." Heb.6:13: For when God made a promise to Abraham, because he could swear to no one greater, he swore by himself." Deut.32:40 "For I raise My hand to heaven, and say, "As I live forever,
The Bible describes God as unchangeable, eternal, immutable always existing. Whatever he reveals of himself is eternal. all his attributes are eternal as they flow from his nature who in essence is also eternal. His power his wisdom, his life, holiness, knowledge, justice mercy, and love. All that God is and flows from him is perfect and eternal are his attributes which express his nature. They are constant they cannot change, this is why he can have unconditional love and we have to work in that and make choices.
the God of the scriptures is presented as eternal in his nature, unchanging. The Bible teaches that God is eternal Duet. 33:27: Neither is his name changed Ps 135:13Your name, O LORD, endures forever, your fame, O LORD, throughout all generations.
The word teaches also teaches that all three persons of the Godhead are also eternal, all belong to the order of eternity. The Father is eternal James 1:17, the Holy Spirit is eternal John 14:16"And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever--Heb 9:14how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to omnipresent Ps 139:7Where can I go from Your Spirit? Or where can I flee from Your presence?
The Son is eternal Hebrews 13:8 " Jesus Christ the same yesterday, today, and forever." Micah 5:2 " speaking of Jesus-whose goings forth are from old (ancient times) from everlasting (from eternity)"there are two goings forth one from eternity and one from in time from Bethlehem. There is no creature that can lay claim to this kind existence. As in Prov.8:22 "the Lord possessed me at the beginning of his way before his works of old, He is wisdom personified if he is a created thing a work from God then there is a time God has no wisdom
John 1:1-4 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. All creatures have their life proceeding from him, he is the cause of their existence . As Paul pointed to In Acts 17:28 to the philosophers we live and move and have our being in him.
God is eternal and does not change. The same property of eternity is ascribed to Christ and the Holy Spirit. If there is an eternal Father, then there is an eternal Son, and an eternal Spirit. one cannot have a father without having a Son. These are terms of relationship. The title, Lord Jesus, applies to the Son alone. It does not apply to the Father, and it does not apply to the Spirit. All three are called LORD, (YAHWEH). They are three persons. God himself says toward the Son in Heb.1:10: " And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands... and they shall be changed: but thou art the same,( quote of Psalm 102:25)
In the scriptures only three persons are ever called God, no more than three are ever seen together as God.
Something that has an eternal nature never comes into existence. Otherwise it has a beginning which means it did not always exist. What undergoes a change cannot be God. Change describes something not retaining its own
being, only something that is created is subject to change.
Mal. 3:6: "I the Lord do not change" so what undergoes a change cannot be the eternal God.
GOD ALWAYS USES the "FOOLISH (NONSENSE)" THINGS to CONFOUND the "WISE."
***ASK BILL: It is clear that the Bible states to forgive people who sin against you. Does a believer have to forgive someone who betrayed them?
ANSWER: Forgiveness is something none of us can do in our own strenght, but in the strenght God gives us. We ask the Lord to forgive us for our sins and He does. How can we expect to be forgiven, yet not forgive others. That does NOT mean you have to have a personal relationship with the person who hurt you. IN many cases that is NOT wise. However, you still need to use the Lord's strength to forgive them Here is a link to a Devotional on this critical issue: http://www.liveprayer.com/ddarchive3.cfm?id=4485
This is the start of Liveprayer's 13th anniversary month. Over the past 155 months, I have done hundreds of print and electronic interviews regarding Liveprayer and the work that we do here each day through the Internet and on secular TV. The one question I am always asked is to sum up what Liveprayer is all about. That has not changed since day one, and it is simply to share the hope and love of Jesus Christ with the lost, and to encourage those who already know Him as their Savior in their daily walk, to be all God has called them to be.
That is the foundation on which Liveprayer was built, and everything we do here each day points back to that foundation. It is also the common goal all Believers should share, regardless of whatever differences there may be on individual doctrinal issues. We should all agree that the ultimate goal is to win the lost in this world for Christ.
There are many ways to accomplish that goal, but the vehicle God has led me to use is prayer. After preaching in over 500 churches of all denominations, sizes, racial and ethnic make-ups during my first 3 years of ministry, the one common bond I found in every church was the day-to-day needs of the people. You see, it doesn't matter if you are white, black, or yellow, if you are rich or poor, if you are a Catholic, a Methodist, a Baptist, a Pentecostal, or if you are saved or not. The fact is, we ALL face the same day-to-day struggles of living life in this sin-filled world.
We all face problems with finances, with our health, in our relationships, problems with our jobs, dealing with the death of people we love, or an addiction to something. This is the common bond we all share as people on this journey called life, and in those times of trouble, Christ is the ONLY hope and answer.
That is what Liveprayer is all about, being available and accessible to people in their time of need. I realize that every day, people are dealing with some problem in their life. Liveprayer is a resource for people at those times in life when they need the strength and hope that only comes from Christ. Many of the 600,000 plus we know of who have accepted the Lord as their Savior came to Liveprayer at a time of crisis in their lives. The ever-growing archive of over 6 million praise reports are a testimony of how God met people at a time of a great need in their life and heard their cries.
Every single day, we receive over 40,000 requests for prayer. I have been blessed with an incredible team of over 700 mostly retired pastors from all over the nation that help me to send personal responses back to each request. I personally respond to between 50 and 100 requests each day at random so I never lose sight of what this ministry is all about. I never want to forget what we are here to do each day, and that is to minister to the lost and hurting in this world, and share with them the hope and love that is only found in Christ.
Here is my promise to you today. I want you to know that when the storms of life come, and none of us are immune to them, I will be here for you. To love you, to pray for you, and to stand with you in your time of need.
One of the great rewards for me these past 155 months has been the way God has allowed me to be part of the lives of so many people all over the world. Seeing those we have ministered to graduate high school and college. Standing with people who went through the devastation of losing their jobs, and rejoicing with them as God opened the doors for new ones. Praying for babies in the womb and then celebrating their birth. Comforting those who have lost moms and dads, sons and daughters, other family members and friends.
Praying for couples as they made the decision to get married and seeing them make that commitment to God and each other for life. Asking God to bring deliverance to someone who was in bondage to some sort of an addiction. Standing in prayer for the restoration of a marriage. Believing God for His healing touch during health problems. Praying for those who were fighting legal matters. Not to mention the day-to-day challenges of life from a dog that ran away to losing a set of keys. I am so grateful to God each day that we are able to be an instrument to share His love and His hope with real people dealing with the real problems of this life.
I love you and care about you so much. I want you to know that no matter what, I am here for you. I want you to know that when you hit the speed bumps in life we all hit, I will be here to pray with you and pray for you. You can always email me at: bkeller@liveprayer.com . I realize that we may not always agree on every issue, but regardless of the areas we may disagree on, know that I am always here for you. No matter what, I will be praying for you and for God's richest blessings in your life.
God has raised up Liveprayer in these last days to be an oasis of hope for people, lost and saved, all over this world. Through the Internet, through secular television, Liveprayer has become an instrument God is using every day to bring the truth of His Word, the hope and love of Jesus Christ to this dark and sin-filled world that we live in.
God has called me to do many things over these past 20 years of service to Him, 13 of those years through Liveprayer. However, none is more fulfilling than to pray for you in your time of need. Let me leave you with this powerful word from one of the greatest prayer warriors that ever lived, E.M. Bounds. He said, "talking to men for God is a great thing, but talking to God FOR men is greater still."
***PLEASE PRAY ABOUT MAKING A SPECIAL GIFT TO LIVEPRAYER DURING OUR ANNIVERSARY MONTH. MANY HAVE BEEN BLESSED BY GOD'S WORK HERE, BUT HAVE NEVER GIVEN TO HELP US. ACTUALLY, LEASS THAN 1/4 OF 1% OF THOSE WE REACH EVERY GIVE A DIME TO SUPPORT GOD'S WORK HERE. ALL WE HAVE DONE OVER THESE 13 YRS, IMPACTING LITERALLY TENS OF MILLIONS OF LIVES WORLDWIDE, HAS ONLY BEEN POSSIBLE BECAUSE FRIENDS LIKE YOU PRAYED AND MADE THE SACRIFICE TO HELP US BE HERE EACH DAY FOR THE HURTING AND LOST.
MOST EVERYONE CAN SEND SOMETHING. LET ME CHALLENGE YOU TO GIVE A GIFT OF $13, $130, $1300, OR FOR SOME, $13,000. THAT IS $1, $10, $100, OR $1,000 FOR EACH YEAR OF SERVICE. GOD WILL MULTIPLY YOUR GIFT EXPONENTIALLY IN THE LIVES AND SOULS OF THOSE WE REACH WITH HIS TRUTH AND THE GOSPEL OF JESUS CHRIST!
TO GIVE A GIFT TO LIVEPRAYER, you can use your major credit card on our secure server at: www.liveprayer.com under the "Donation" link, you can give using your PayPal account using my email address: bkeller@liveprayer.com,or you can mail your gift to: Liveprayer, 6660 46th Ave. North, St.Petersburg, FL 33709. All gifts to Liveprayer are 100% tax deductible.
THANK YOU FOR YOUR LOVE, YOUR PRAYERS, AND YOUR SACRIFCE. THESE 13 YEARS HAVE ONLY BEEN POSSIBLE BECAUSE OF YOU, AND I THANK GOD FOR YOU EACH DAY. KNOW YOU AND YOUR FAMILY ARE IN MY PRAYERS. WE PRESS ON TOWARDS THE PRIZE!
In His love and service,
Your friend and brother in Christ,
Bill Keller
Date: 04/16/08 - 1568 days ago.
Category: CATHOLICISM
Pope Benedict XVI Comes to the United States
(John 17:21; 2 Timothy 3:16; Ephesians 2:8,9; 1 Corinthians 1:10)
Pope Benedict XVI comes to the United States! As someone who for nearly 2 decades now has rebuked and rejected those extremists who call the Roman Catholic Church a cult, the "whore of Babylon," the anti-Christ," I have also rebuked and rejected the extremists on the other side who made the claim that the Roman Catholic Church is the only true church and that you are not even saved unless you are part of that church. Both sides are equally wrong! In a document released last July, Pope Benedict XVI, the head of 1.1 billion Catholics worldwide, stated that, "other Christian communities are either defective or not true churches and Catholicism provides the only true path to salvation." This is not true and I pray that during his visit, the Pope will correct this Biblically false statement.
This is a perfect example why I share with you so often that our final authority in all matters is the BIBLE, not whatever some man, even the Pope, says. Liveprayer mounted a major prayer effort as this new Pope was being elected and asked God to bless his time of leadership. The Pope is a man, no more special than any other man or woman God calls to serve Him. He is flesh and bone, fallible and a sinner like all men are. I remember specifically praying that he would have a heart and passion to see the lost won for Christ. Sola scriptura, "by Scripture alone," was a foundational doctrinal principle of Martin Luther's reformation. There is no other authority outside of God's Word, and any teachings in contradiction to the Bible are heresy!
The Bible teaches that the church (ekklesia) is a body of Believers. The true church according to Scriptures is made up of those who have accepted Jesus Christ as their Savior and hold the Bible to be God's inspired, inerrant Word, representing Absolute Truth and our final authority in all matters. We read in the Book of Acts about the first church birthed in Jerusalem, and churches began to spring up all over the known world as the Gospel of Jesus Christ was being preached. It was nearly 400 years AD before what we know of today as the Roman Catholic Church emerged. By that time, there were already thousands of Christian churches established throughout the world. What makes a true Christian church is faith in Jesus Christ and adherence to the Bible as God's Word. So for Pope Benedict to state that all non-Roman Catholic churches are not true churches is a lie and not what the Bible teaches.
Most troubling, however, is the Pope's claim that salvation is only achieved through the Roman Catholic Church. I hate to give the Pope a Theology 101 lesson, but there is only one way to be saved and that is through faith in Jesus Christ alone. Period! NO CHURCH CAN SAVE YOU! NO AMOUNT OF GOOD WORKS CAN SAVE YOU! Sola fides, "by faith alone." The only way a person can be saved is by giving their heart and life to Jesus by faith working in conjunction with God's grace (Ephesians 2:8,9). This notion that being part of a church can save you is not only anti-Biblical, it is pure blasphemy! In essence, what Pope Benedict is saying is that anyone outside of the Roman Catholic Church is not saved! That is NOT what the Bible teaches and is the type of statement I would expect out of a cult leader, not the head of the world's 1.1 billion Catholics!
As a side note, just last year Pope Benedict correctly stated that Islam was spread by violence and this false religions founder, Mohammed, was "evil." Sadly, he later apologized and even went to visit a Mosque in a peace making effort to those who are following the lies of Islam to hell. I chastised the Pope at the time for being a coward and apologizing for simply telling the truth, and further chastised him for visiting a Mosque for any other reason except to tell those following the lies of Islam how to be saved. It appears now that the Pope doesn't even know how to be saved and I wonder if he is trusting Jesus by faith or his church for his own salvation? I find it very troubling that the Pope would seek to placate those who are following the false religion of Islam to the depths of hell, yet has no problem telling Bible-believing Christians who have put their faith in Jesus Christ that unless they are part of the Roman Catholic Church they are not saved!
With over 200,000 of the apx 2.4 million subscribers to the Daily Devotional being part of the Roman Catholic Church, I am already prepared for the onslaught of hatred that will be heading my way in the coming days. That saddens me since one of the things I am most grateful for is how God has used Liveprayer to bring unity to the badly divided Body of Christ. Over 1/3 of those who receive the Daily Devotional each day are not Christians. Of the 2/3 who are, they are equally divided among those who go to Baptist, Methodist, Lutheran, Pentecostal, Independent, and Catholic Churches. Ever since I started my public ministry in 1992, one of my greatest "big picture" goals was to help bring the Body of Christ together as one as our Lord prayed in John 17 just hours before going to the cross. Dividing the Body is something satan has been doing since the first church in the Book of Acts, what Paul warned about quite often in his letters to the churches, and what makes Christ's church so weak and ineffective today.
You see, my message then and my message now has really never changed. It is a universal message that plays to people in and out of the church. "If you don't know Jesus by faith you need to make the decision for Him today. If you do know the Lord, you need to fully surrender your life and allow Him to use you. No matter what problems you may be facing in your life today, Jesus is the answer!" As I have shared with you often, when you die, there will be only two lines in Heaven, There won't be a line for Whites and one for Blacks. There won't be a line for Catholics and one for Protestants. There will be one line for those who know Jesus Christ as their Savior by faith, and one for those who do not! Trust me, when you take your last breath and stand before God, He is not going to ask you the name of the church you went to, only if you know Jesus as your Savior by faith!
In dealing with a worldwide audience of over 2.4 million people every day, I am VERY well aware of the incredible divisions there are in Christ's Body. Perhaps no division is as great as the one between Catholics and non-Catholics. The fact is, the Roman Catholic Church has a long and well-documented history. However, the reality is, it is simply a denomination or group of churches, no different than a group of Southern Baptist, United Methodist, or Assemblies of God Churches. Each group of churches or denominations has their own rich heritage, traditions, and leaders. The critical point is that while each group of churches or denominations have their own unique differences in regard to different doctrinal issues, what makes them CHRISTIAN churches are the foundational element of the Christian faith. Who Jesus Christ is, that salvation is through faith in Christ alone, and the Bible is God's inspired, inerrant Word and our final authority in all matters.
THE ONE TRUE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST IS NOT A GROUP OF CHURCHES OR A DENOMINATION OR A BUILDING, IT IS MADE UP OF EVERY PERSON WHO HAS ACCEPTED JESUS CHRIST INTO THEIR HEARTS AND LIVES BY FAITH!!!
Now, let me address some of the issues about the Roman Catholic Church that have led many who know the Lord to leave that church and has caused much of the division with non-Catholics. Three of the 700+ retired ministers who serve the Lord by helping me each day respond to the over 40,000 emails that we receive are Roman Catholic Priests. Over my years of ministry, I have personally preached in over 1/2 dozen Catholic Churches (and I can assure
you that I shared the unadulterated truth of the Gospel and gave an altar call as I do whenever I preach in public), and the best we can tell, approx. 200,000 of the 2.4 million plus subscribers to the Daily Devotional are Catholics. I have read and studied the Catechism of the Roman Catholic Church and as a student of church history am very well aware of what the Catholic Church teaches.
The problem most non-Catholics have with the Catholic Church is what I call their non-Biblical traditions, which by the way, ALL groups of churches or denominations have. I don't have the time to go through a complete list but the main ones are how they deal with the mother of Jesus, Mary. She was a virgin when she was immaculately conceived by the Holy Spirit, however, she was a person of flesh and blood like you and I and was born with sin just like you and I were. She also had other children as we know from the Scriptures. There is nothing wrong with honoring her for the incredible role God chose her to play in her life, but she is NOT a deity and praying to her is as meaningless as it is to pray to any other person who is dead (including those the Catholic Church has deemed to be "saints") or alive. There is only ONE person we pray to and that is Jesus.
Another big issue in the Catholic Church is Communion. The tradition of the Catholic Church is that the wafer representing the body of our Lord and the wine representing His blood literally becomes the body and blood of Christ. That is a very real theological argument that Scripture does not support, but I don't see that as an area for major contention. The Bible exhorts us to take Communion often in remembrance of the sacrifice of our Lord and there are those who believe based on certain verses it becomes the literal body and blood of Christ. Another issue that I don't think is that important is confessing your sins to a Priest. The Bible tells us to confess our sins one to another, so there is nothing wrong if it is your Priest you choose to do that with. However, please understand that NO MAN, only Jesus can forgive you of your sins since it was only Jesus who died for your sins.
Another issue that is critical to talk about is salvation. There are some who teach in error (just like some non-Catholic churches do) that you can do enough good works to earn your way into Heaven which is clearly refuted by Ephesians 2:8-9. Those who teach this point to the passage in James that "Faith without works is dead." The fact is that passage was written to people who were already saved. The Bible clearly teaches that a person who is truly saved will have "fruit" or good works follow them. These good works do not save them but flow from their salvation.
Lastly is the Bible. The Catholic Bible has 6 historical books known as the Apocrypha that deal with those 400 years from the end of Malachi, the end of the Old Testament, to the start of the New Testament. These books were never found to be inspired or inerrant and thus are not part of the 66 books we call the Bible. The Bible is God's inspired, inerrant Word, representing Absolute Truth and our final authority in all matters. It, and it alone is our authority and overrides any teachings or traditions of man.
Since the 1970's, there has been a very active and growing Charismatic group within the Roman Catholic Church that is as Pentecostal as any Pentecostal Church you will ever attend. Also, in the past 10 years, there is a growing and strong evangelical movement within the Catholic Church. They are working within the Church to bring back a greater emphasis on the Word of God and on the message of salvation and less emphasis on the traditions of the Catholic Church. Many people who know Christ as their Savior by faith have chosen to stay in the Catholic Church. They are just as saved, love the Lord, and honor His Word as much as anyone who attends a non-Catholic Church.
Are there people in the Catholic Church who aren't saved? Of course! Just like there are people in any church who are not saved. My friend, your Catholic church can't save you, your Methodist Church can't save you, your Baptist Church can't save you, your Pentecostal Church can't save you, only faith in Jesus Christ can save you! Being baptized can't save you, the faith of your parents can't save you, no amount of good works can save you, ONLY FAITH IN JESUS CHRIST CAN SAVE YOU!!!
I love you and care about you so much. I watch daily as satan works to divide the Body of Christ, and perhaps there is no division as great as the one between Catholics and non-Catholics. Pope Benedict greatly contributed to that division last summer by stating that all non-Catholic churches are not true churches and you can only be saved through the Roman Catholic Church. If the Pope really believes this, he is in complete rebellion to what the Bible teaches! Catholics around the world who have a real relationship with Christ MUST SPEAK OUT! You cannot let the heresy of one man, even the Pope, turn your great church which is based on God's Word into a cult. That is why God gave us His Word, so that we don't have to rely on what men say, but on what He says!
My greatest prayer of all is that during his visit, as tens of thousands of people gather to hear the Pope, tens of millions more watching by television, that he would clearly lay out the fact that we are saved by our faith in Christ alone and challenge all who hear him to surrender their hearts and lives by faith to Jesus. It could be the greatest altar call ever given if he would let the Holy Spirit guide him and use him to bring the greatest truth of all to those who will be listening to him speak.
Martin Luther's break with the Catholic Church took place at a time when the Catholic Church was more of a political entity than a spiritual one. Luther wanted to get back to the foundation of the faith, that being salvation is through God's grace and our faith alone (Ephesians 2:8-9), or sola fides, and the final authority of God's Word, or sola scriptura. What makes us Christians is that we are bonded by the shed blood of Jesus Christ and God's Word, not the teachings of men or the name on the building we choose to worship in, but the Truth of the Bible and our faith in Jesus Christ!!!
Ok--so I HAVE posted the IMMEDIATE-ABOVE message in ANOTHER board-post, but JUST IN CASE there might've been those that STILL HADN'T READ IT by now, so goes an encore.
SilverLightning,
Thank you for answering my post.
If I came across of judging you just because you are an Atheist,I am sorry. You are probably a kind and loving person. You are right. I don't know you.
If I am trying to make excuses because of my husband's death, so be it.
I know some Atheists and they are pretty good people and like helping others.
Can we try and just get along? I like commenting on different board posts just like everyone does. I did try to opologize to one of the members on here for my miss hearing one of the posts and she didn't want to except it, so I did leave the zone for a while to cool off.
Thank you again. Take care and have a nice day!
You are right about the feelings getting heart. It doesn't take much I guess.
SilverLightning,
Thank you for answering my post.
If I came across of judging you just because you are an Atheist,I am sorry. You are probably a kind and loving person. You are right. I don't know you.
If I am trying to make excuses because of my husband's death, so be it.
I know some Atheists and they are pretty good people and like helping others.
Can we try and just get along? I like commenting on different board posts just like everyone does. I did try to opologize to one of the members on here for my miss hearing one of the posts and she didn't want to except it, so I did leave the zone for a while to cool off.
Thank you again. Take care and have a nice day!
You are right about the feelings getting heart. It doesn't take much I guess.
SilverLightning,
Thank you for your post.
I know I don't know what you are like. I am not going to judge you just because you choose to be an Atheist. If I came across that way, I am sorry. That is by all means your choice. My sister-in-law chooses being an Atheist and she is very kind hearted and would give you the shirt off her back if she thought you needed it. You are probably the same way. I don't know .
If I made it sound like I was making up excuses to the fact because of my husband's death, so be it.
I would like to drop evrything. I really do try to get along with everyone here. Isn't that what the zone is about?
I tried to opologize to one of the members on here, but the person didn't want anything to do with me just because I heard wrong on one of the posts.
Again, thanks for your last post to me.
Take care and have a good day!
Who is Tricia Ericson?
A bitch.
hahaha lol.
She appears to be a woman who used to be LDS "A Mormon". This is essentially an interview bashing the Mormon religion. Unfortunately she does not use factual information. Or if she does in some cases it is information which she puts her own negative spin on.
Thanks guys, her name should be Tricia Erection.
Hahaha!
That is good!